Episode 2: Behind the Tape with Lance Burdett

Narrator: Welcome to the Unfair Advantage Project. Unique perspective, practical insights and unexpected discoveries directly focused on giving you the unfair advantage. Introducing your hosts Nadia Hughes and Terence Toh.

Terence: Hi! Terence here and welcome to today's episode of the Unfair Advantage Project. And today we're interviewing Lance Burdett. Lance was a police officer and for 22 years in the New Zealand police force and also spent 13 years as a crisis negotiator. He has since gone on to be the founder and CEO of WARN International. He's a presenter and he's also an author of a book called Behind the Tape. And today we discuss how to manage yourself, your team and others particularly in difficult situations to get the best outcomes. So, I hope you enjoy this episode of the Unfair Advantage Project.

Terence: Welcome to the Unfair Advantage Project. And today we've got a great guest here.

Lance: We’re going to find out along the way.

Terence: Well then, Lance Burdett just flown in from New Zealand. So thanks for coming to see us on a not quite sunny today Mornington Penninsula. On your way pretty much here at the airport. Thanks for your time.
And again Nadia has kind of introduced us to so I’ll let Nadia get started with some question questions.

Nadia: Of course. Again thank you very much for coming and taking this. So in such a good spirit. You are an international crisis negotiator, what other titles do you have?

Lance: So, I was a crisis negotiator and an international responder to hostage situations for New Zealand police. I led New Zealand police in negotiations so I still go back there. Although I left the police four years ago, I still go back to New Zealand Police and spend a day there with new negotiators coming around. So my main, I guess, my expertise was suicide intervention. So, dealing with people in crisis and how to get them out of it.

Nadia: Yes. And it's because it's dealing with police, they're obviously got themselves into trouble.

Lance: Yeah. It's different for everyone but most people. So, eighty percent of our brain is negative. So, the only positive memory we have in our life, it is said, for long term is holidays. And, so eighty percent of our memories are negative. So that builds up in time. And if we don't sleep well, if we don't exercise well, if we don't eat well, if we don't socialize, in other words talk with other people, there's a high chance that we may end up starting to self-talk. And that builds up to negative self-talk, and that that voice inside all of us that we all have starts talking back to us and that's our biggest critic, etc. And those things build up, little milestone along our life will get in the way of things and then it actually puts a mark on your Hippocampus, your long term memory, these negative events. And they will keep coming back and coming back and sometimes with people it just gets a little bit over overwhelming.

Nadia: In one of your articles you basically training ball, trying to give some tips on how to become more positive in your brain and shut these words down. What one of the most prominent technique you would call apart from meditation?

Lance: Yeah, well, that's right. So, I'm a big believer in the rubber band on the wrist. It comes from neuro linguistic program. You just wear a rubber band on your wrist and you flick it every time you have a negative thought. And what it does, it disrupts the neurotransmitter so our brain likes to run on pathways.
And that's how we learn things, so neural newer pathways. When you concentrate on one thing for a long period of time, it becomes like a superhighway if you like. And so, the idea is to try and break that pattern. So, we try and break it. There's a number of, I teach five techniques. The one that I like the visitors best is flicking a rubber band on your wrist on the inside of a wrist and it just disrupts your thought processes and eventually you're going to start thinking about other things. That's probably the easiest and best option that people find.

Nadia: Via this podcast, it's design to service business owners. Business owners quite often have these panic attacks. There is something. Oh, let's put it in trivial terms, the big tax bill comes from a paper bag.

Terence: I've I feel the pain.

Nadia: Oh well alright, first of all we look at that positively. The government doesn't fairly taxes us. That's how big a deal bill big profit. However, when people get caught in a panic mode what would be your technique?

Lance: Yeah. So, inside of our brain it's is something called the Amygdala and that's responsible for what we call the Amygdala Hijack. It's responsible for fight or flight. And so, when you go into fight or flight, your heart starts to beat fast and your breathing becomes short and shallow. You go into more into your right brain which is creative and defensive side of your brain rather than the logic part of it. And so, when you go across and all these things adrenaline goes into your blood and into your muscles to make you strong. And so this Cortisol. Cortisol is a blood thickener as well. It is designed so that you don't bleed to death when you get attacked by a wild animal. So, we don't need that stuff anymore. And it’s, there's only two ways to overcome an effect. One, the most important way is breathing. And there's a number of breathing techniques you can use. So, special forces soldiers have a different breathing technique. They just breathe out. But they also use muscle memory. So, they train like they play. So, they'll train with bullets flying into them. You're not going to have that in a business but…

Nadia: You would be. It's actually would be metaphorical bullets.

Terence: Yeah, you're that's right.

Nadia: You get. You get a feeling overwhelmed and bombarded by…

Lance: Good point.

Nadia: What else is coming to play?

Lance: That's exactly it. So, that's what the brain. So, the brain is designed to look for danger and exaggerate it. That's called Catastrophization. Let's look at see what dangers out there and let's exaggerate it. And this, again all happens now. It is said we go through eighteen to twenty fight or flight panic attacks everyday. And some we know some we don't. So, the ones that we do know the easiest way to control yourself is to take a very big deep quite brief. That will fill your lungs with air and that stops them from pumping. This and that little. When you use a third of our lungs and fight or flight. The second thing to do is to hold your breath. When you hold your breath your heart rate will slow down. And the third thing to do is to control that little voice inside your head. Never ever do anything immediately when you're in fight or flight because it goes back to your - we have four brains - it goes back to the original brain, the one that says defend yourself. So, we. What we can do is we can either count inside our head: 1001, 1002, 1003. And the reason we put a thousand in there is to stop us from going to one, two, three. Or slow is smooth, smooth is fast. It's a mantra that that soldiers use, the military use and technical teams use. It’s around slowing down your thoughts. So, you actually say it inside your head. You think to yourself - slow is smooth, smooth is fast. And when you do that, your thoughts slow down. And you go to your rational brain. Now that's the number one way of dealing with fight or flight. It is the best. And one of the things I teach an emergency response is - and it comes from what's called the starting, next, stop, think, act and review. Review comes later. So, I say stop, breathe, act. And the only two things you can do with act is I'm either going to stay or I'm going to go fight or flight. So, simplification of things. Things have got complex these days. We've got to sort of try and roll them back a little bit.
So that's the number one technique to dissolve all that energy because it builds up over a day. We find this in the customer service industry. If you have two or three bad calls, or two or three bad customers, chances are your fourth, fifth and sixth are going to be the same because you've got adrenaline, cortisol. You're in fight or flight and the next customer comes in.

Terence: When you're ready to go or do you want to fight it? Let's do it. So, there's already a lot value going for a few minutes but, so out of what you've spoken about is there’s kind of so much to unpack there. But one of the things that interests me is maybe how can we identify when we're in a fight or flight mode? Is there simple way that we can say to ourselves okay now we know, we can identify the reaction?

Lance: Yeah. Well it's pretty simple. Your heart rate rises. It's just a bit faster and your cheeks will go red. So that's a way of identifying and somebody else verified to fly if they're in fight or flight their cheeks will get quite right red.

Terence: Okay.

Lance: And so, they will, they're about to launch at you. Plus, the other person will start to argue or become annoying with you and then they go to anger and they go to aggression. So, it's the heart beating faster because that’s as soon as that amygdala sparks off, all this thing happens in an instant. And the heart rate rising is the number one sign that you're on fight or flight. Some people think it's a panic attack. It's not.

Terence: Yeah.

Lance: It might be. But most cases, let's say you’re on the side of no it's not. And it's just holding your breath. So, if you feel your heart gone, you don't even have to take a breath. Just hold your breath, and that will slow it down.

Nadia: It's also very important for business owners, they have negotiations all the time. They're buying businesses, they sell businesses. Things go wrong, they go into finance, re-finance things. They’re heavily dependent on their communications skills, it’s out there. Recognize them and get on the surface.

Lance: Right.

Nadia: It's all hidden. We're obviously going and we’re going based on cold facts. This is what the fact. That majority of negotiation and business can be going kiss away. They all have 50 percent of chance…

Lance: Yeah.

Nadia: of occurrence.

Lance: Yeah.

Nadia: Therefore, when in negotiation, What the biggest failure or factors of negotiation? And what does there actual success factors?

Lance: I've got a program called From Crisis to Control. So, I've taken out of crisis intervention which is what my expertise is – to controlling situations. The number one rule in any situation when communicating with somebody else is to make it about them. That's the number one rule. Our brains are wired to defend ourselves and to make it about us. Here's a simple explanation of how it works. So, if I was to ask you what primary school you went to, what was your first school? You would answer me?

Terence: Primary school. I’ll think about it.

Lance: It doesn't really matter now because I'll ask Nadi. When I asked that question…

Nadia: Of course.

Lance: Were you thinking of your own primary school?

Nadia: That's, I know that trick.

Lance: So there you go. It's a party trick and it's not actually. So, what it is is our brains when we talk with people we're reflecting on ourselves. And that’s where unconscious bias comes from and that's where all of these things that interfere with good communication. So, the way we overcome them that is to ask open-ended questions. We ask the other person about themselves. And we might start off with this an acronym which you may have heard called TEDS: Tell Explain Describe Show. That's how you start your sentence when you're asking, talk with somebody else. So, you might say explain to me what you need this item for. And so, they start talking. You make it about them. And that's the number one rule. The second rule is never be afraid to give something away first. Instead of becoming defensive, give something. Even if it's a cup of tea. It’s something simple. Now I feel obliged because I've got a cup of tea sitting in front of me to stay here.

Nadia: It's not expensive.

Terence: Hahaha!

Lance: Now I feel obliged like I have to give you something. So that's the way human behavior works.

Terence: Okay.

Lance: So, the number one thing is make it about them. Ask them about them. Don't guess. So, ask. Don't assume. It’s like a little mantra. Ask, don't assume. Ask people. Don't think you know. Ask them.

Terence: So, let’s bring this into maybe a practical approach to maybe a negotiation with the customer or something like that. So, Nadia who’s in our accounting practice. She's got a customer who is maybe angry about having to pay too much tax.

Lance: Right.

Nadia: Of course. Those are clients.

Lance: Yes, yes.

Nadia: It's alright.

Terence: And so, I guess. And it is a bit of an open question you can do, this what you will. What are some hints for Nadia? And I guess there's some hints in what you've already spoken about. But maybe that practical approach, she's got a quiet client whose quite obviously upset about something along those lines. What can she do to help her deal with that?

Lance: Well in that situation, I'm quite right that if you're paying lots of tax you're making lots of money. But that's not the way. They don't want that as an answer. So that what they prefer to hear you say is “So how is paying so much tax impacting on you?”. So, you ask them about them. So, if you can bring emotions into it. So, in every single conversation, there is emotions. You can't separate talking with emotions. And so, what we do is try and bring them both together. So, we're acknowledging the other person's situation. Well, it must be difficult for you. You could say things like that but you're guessing. So how is this impacting on you? What are your thoughts around the sort of thing? An emotion that is acknowledged is disarmed. So we're making it about them. We are talking about how they feel. How, what their thoughts are which is the emotions. We don't actually use the word Jesus must be emotional for you.

Terence and Nadia: Hahahaha!

Lance: Likely they get to punch you in the face.

Terence: Yes.

Lance: But what we can say is, how is that impacting on you? What are your thoughts around this? And then we would get to that around. Well, you clearly you must be making, you must, business must be going okay cause you're making that much money. And yes still there's an impact. So, acknowledging the emotions would be the great way to start. And just keep asking them questions from what they say. Because if you can focus on one part, when we talk with each other. If you look at people in a conversation, and I like starting people in conversations, in cafes and things, we follow each other's lead. That's how we go down a conversation. And we go down to the very end and we find something else to talk about. So, why not do the same in business? You just keep it a little bit shorter, that's all. You don't to be there forever. When you're going into a negotiation, it's always best to prepare. Get to know a little about the person. What they want, what they're after. You've got it, you've got an arm ready to go. And then - so preparation is the key for all of these things.

Nadia: I have another question which is again so pertinent to clients. It's price. They quite often, they think they undersell themselves.

Lance: Right.

Nadia: A lot of people have difficulty stating the price.

Lance: Right.

Nadia: And a lot of people have difficulties having boundaries about their terms of payment.

Lance: Right.

Nadia: It means they don't, they avoid. They’re taking tactical avoidance. The more they’re having difficult conversation. They’re worried that they’ll spoil the relationship with their customers. And this is most common issue. I mean, it is them not selling and not having good price. And the value in what they're doing. And also, having a really loose term of trade which are very hard to enforce introducing the entire saga of following-up phone calls, repeating invoices and everything. As it might sound as something technical and outwardly boring from outside the point of view, but this is their livelihood.

Lance: Yes.

Nadia: That's what it is. Your money as good not as your invoice but as your receivables, deposits in into your bank. Invoices mean nothing.

Lance: Yeah. It's quite hard to do. So, I've been in business for years.

Nadia: How does that do?

Lance: Very lucky I’ve increased business four hundred percent this year. And I increased business by putting up my prices. I was out there trying to get runs on the board as they say. Trying to get a name for myself and I was trying too hard. And when people were saying to me when they see me do a presentation or teach a team, coach a team on how to deal with angry people, they’d say things like you should be charging more. And I was like, yeah. well I'll get there, I'll get there. And so, this year I thought well I’m there, let's go and see what happens. People have this. I find it difficult to find a level playing field, so I look around people and I say “What do you charge? What do you charge?”. But it's in your gut. So, I fit in that nice little niche between the people that charge ten thousand dollars for a half an hour and those that charge a thousand dollars for a day. So, I fit in there quite nicely and it's just a nice little, I guess, piece of the marketplace. And it works. What I'll often do though is, when I send out a price or if I'm meeting somebody. I’ll say to them “Our price is this, would that fit your budget?”. Then if it doesn't then you can always come down a little bit. But when you're, you just got to really go with your gut. You'll get an understanding it takes time to build up confidence to know what you're worth and what your self-worth is. Sometimes I've charged an hour a couple grand or three grand or something and then I've walked into a room of five hundred people. And I think, Oh they’re getting really good return of investment. And I feel really bad. I drive away going “Damn, I should have charged double.”. it that way.

Terence: At least.

Lance: But at the end of the day, if you have faith in yourself and in your product, no matter what it is, that's the number one key for me. Have faith. If you're not don't have faith in yourself and your product, then you might want to change your business.

Terence: So, what was the biggest factor for you that kind of caused you to review that and look at it and say well hang on I'm worth more than this?

Lance: I think number one thing was feedback, for me. So, I have a ninety plus percent engagement rate in my coaching sessions. In fact, I was with an organization Nevertire. A council, like a local council. And they ask the question was this helpful, yes or no? And forty-nine said yes and one said no. So I went to find that person. I want to track them down. So that's the sort of feedback I was getting. And additionally, I was getting very tired with the products I'm selling. I am the product and the services sort of. And over a year was getting very very sick. So, I was working hard to make a dollar and burned out and all that sort of stuff that comes on stress that goes with it. So, I sort of thought. And everyone's saying, look you've got to put your prices up. One day I just did. And nothing changed. In fact, more work comes to me now because people say well it's value for money. But he charges a bit, but the value we get is great. We don't mind paying that because we know the result, the feedback is there. Sometimes you do. And I got told once that if you've got a. The company that makes those Mont Blanc pins for example, they didn't start at the dollar and build up to it. Well that's probably not. That's probably the case. But sometimes you do. If that’s the brand of your pin, no one knows it.

Terence: Maybe it starts somewhere.

Lance: You're not going to. Start somewhere. You're not going to come out and say wait, it’s a ten-thousand-dollar pin. Yeah.

Terence: Hahaha!

Lance: And people go oh good we don't even know the product. So, you do have to get some runs on a board. So, I always say to people get yourself out there, get your product out there and just go with your gut instinct. And gut instinct that’s the brain. We know that gut and, the gut, the heart and the brain, they’re all interconnected. And so that feeling that you get when things are just right, it's because it is just right.

Terence: Did you have just stop on the pricing you move on from that? How did you decide how much more to charge? Is it bad? I think a lot of business owners go through. And it's like okay well how do I know how much I'm worth or how do I know how much to charge? What's fair, what's not?

Lance: Right.

Terence: Did you have a system that you used to get to that?

Lance: Yeah. I just slowly built up. And when you get a couple of rejections you think well it's too much. But it depends on the organization as well. Government organizations, which I do a lot of work with now, don't have money. And I was told you could never go above two thousand dollars a day. I'm above that. Thank you very much. And so that was wrong. So, the advice that you get sometimes is wrong. It's about finding your niche so. Somebody else at the other end of the spectrum said think of a number and double it. So essentially, I doubled my price…

Terence: Doubled your number.

Lance: Doubled my number and nothing changed. I'm still, in effect, getting more work than I've ever got before.

Nadia: It's a very relevant advice for people with experience. With years and years of hard work, behind your shoulders. When you can validate and can justify this price? What we have on the other end of the spectrum, we have very new startups coming, announcing their price and we have this podcast brilliantly called illusion. And these ones also coming they’re brave enough to just go and boldly say that's what I'm worth. And the question was, why would you use this? You can explain why you were set much?

Lance: Yes, yes. You've got I mean. You can’t just have a product, a matchstick and say I'm going to charge ten thousand dollars as much that because no one's going to buy that. It's a really good matchstick that you use at three times. The product has to support the price. And so, it's getting their balance. It's getting the balance, right? And feedback, customer feedback is one of the things one of the keys to this. If you sell a product and it's something that, I'm guess I'm selling a product when I do my coaching services, I will go back to the client and say thanks so much. Here's my invoice and here is also attached as a short survey you might want to run across some of your time so that I can develop my program. Simple as that. Oh, and it's just done on SurveyMonkey or something like that. And they just do a quick little into it, gives me areas to work on. Hard to take sometimes particularly when you ask what would they know? I'm the expert here. Well sometimes it’s just going to bite your tongue and take and sip some of the criticism that comes on. Take it as development opportunity. So getting customer feedback is good. Don't talk to family and friends about them because they're too close. Way too close. They've got too much involvement. You know I got told Oh you should charge up here. No, no. That's just ridiculous. So, family here are two close. Good to have around. Good for support, moral support but they don't. You've got to do it yourself. As I say the more it builds up in the more confident she'd get the easier it becomes. Just know that you're going to have to be a little bit resilient. People are going to come and knock you over every now. And then, I guess that's just part of life and move on. I got a couple of disappointments that I when I landed, check the amusement Oh they’re going with somebody else. But then, later on today, we want to hear from you about what we've got going. And so it comes and goes, it comes and goes. Don't get disheartened. Keep going.

Terence: So, you referring to coaching programs, a couple of times? Tell us a little bit more about that.

Lance: The coaching programs that I do come from crisis intervention. So, I teach people how to de-escalate angry people. So how to bring people down with both words and body language. That's the main thing. But we also teach around emergency response, how to tell the difference between somebody who's just being argumentative, who's being annoying. I pay you wages, that sort of stuff that they do throw angry and went up to the aggressive. However, there's a lot of misunderstanding around that. For example, some people when they get angry, they will point the finger down, downwards or they'll bang it on the table. Now what I’m doing is putting this stake in the ground are not aggressive. It's not aggression. This is my position. So, it's not. It's anger. It's not aggression and some people miss. Hey, if you keep doing that I'm going to kick you out.

Terence: That’s being also human.

Lance: So, I do understand. I'm not going past this point. It's when they start aiming that finger at you. They’re pointing at you. In other words, they’re poking you in the chest. That’s and they would change. Their words will go from just being angry and I might be swearing but it turns off. So I call it the three Vs – volume, venom, violence. So, with that, now their spitting poisonous venom. You're nothing, but if, that sort of thing. So now they’re words have changed. So now, not only is body language into it, words are into it. So now you know you've got an aggressive person. So, we give them three warnings. In the old days we used to kick people out of shops and things get out, get out. And they go. Now they say make me. So, the way the mind, the brains have changed now. It’s if you push on somebody, they'll push twice as hard back. So we just bring something up like say to them look I'm just having a bit of trouble helping you when you swear. Nice and humility when you say it. They keep doing it. As I said before I really can't help you when you swear. Second. Third time, look it's really not working. And in effect, I won't help you. Can I suggest you come back tomorrow or perhaps later in the week? So, we leave the door open now instead of closing it. If you try and push someone out, they push back. Shoplifters are a classic. We used to have shoplifters, we used to teach security officers to walk up to them and say you've stolen it before they leave the shop. And of course, they haven't stolen it. So now we get them to walk up with a shopping basket and hand it to the person and say would you like to put that, that’s in your pocket into this basket while you do the rest of your shopping? So, we do that and they get surprised. Or if they leave the shop as they're going out that store, we might say something like wait can I wrap that before you go? So, without saying you have brave for it, can I wrap it? can I wrap that? In other words, you’ve stolen it. In a lot of occasions, they'll just throw it at you. Great. You got your product back. And they won't come back. So, it's humility these days. We used to meet anger with anger.

Nadia: So are you saying as humor’s there can either…

Lance: It is. It’s more people get stunned by it. They’re like, really?

Nadia: Did you come up is it or who come up with it?

Lance: Yes. We. Oh, I neglect to take credit. Humility. So, we used the meet anger with anger, and it worked. So, baby boomers, my generation, we would yell at each other and walk away and think we both won and life was good. We both called each other idiots then we went away. These days, and in fact even baby boomers, we become even angrier than we've ever been before. Let's not go down that road. And so now people are coming back with violence. So, by using humility you can pick people up, lift them off the ground and put them wherever you want them without them even knowing it. Somebody said to me the other day in a session, aren't you being manipulated? No. You're manipulating them if you think it that way because they don't know you're doing. You're doing it so nice.

Nadia: You almost created a language of new else where people actually becoming elevated and sorts.

Lance: Yeah that’s it.

Terence: I noticed that with that approach, you seem to be focusing on the behavior not necessarily the person.

Lance: Yeah that’s it.

Terence: So, I'm assuming that's…

Lance: That’s exactly where it comes from. It's all based on the psychology. So, I, even on safety, I teach around psychological safety not keeping your brain straight but keeping yourself focused across your day. We know that accidents happen not because it's an accident. It's because somebody has probably leapt on concentration. And so, I teach how to stay concentrated all day. And how to stay energized all day. So, our brain runs on protein and as we get across the day it runs out. So, if it is just another leaf, then you can eat and do whatever you want. It will help. You can hydrate which is very good for you. There's a couple of other techniques. Going for a fifteen-minute walk will energize you, will give you Endorphins in your brain, it will help. Then, smiling is a very good one. So, when you smile you produce serotonin and a little bit of Dopamine. And the other one is look forward to good things coming up. That's the one I like. So, what we're doing is we're sitting here in an interview situation and Lance is looking forward to this finishing…

Terence: Hahahaha!

Lance: so he can go and relax. So he can relax. So, I get a shot of Dopamine when I hit that little thought. So something's coming up in the weekend and you think Oh that's right. I've got it footy game on. Oh, that's right. I'm going to go and so you get this little you know we all feel good we do it so that's open and that will energize your brain for the afternoon. Also, you can't stay concentrated all day. We know, cricket is a classic example, the game of cricket. When do wickets fall? After the afternoon tea break. One we're out of energy and two, we've dropped the ball literally. We've had a cup of tea or a drink and we’d relaxed. That’s when accidents happen as well. Towards the afternoon, we've got no energy. So, what we do is we focus across the day. We get into our work and we might get into that little complacency, I guess it used to be called, and now I see somebody’s calling at busy brain so there are thoughts are going elsewhere. So, we bring ourselves back to the moment. Every fifteen, ten or fifteen minutes and we look around us. And say yep, I’m more good and away you go with you. And you just keep doing it to energize your brain into, it's called situational awareness. Military use it. Police use it. Where am I? Where am I going to? What's around me? Where are the dangers? And yes, you do use up your energy but then it becomes like exercise. The more you do it the easier it becomes.

Terence: So there any other focusing is really interesting to me? I spent a bit of time working on personal effectiveness and staying focused and helping people. So, I finally major thing with my client when they first come to me as they're quite often overwhelmed. They’ve just got too much going on. They're not focused on probably the right things, whatever. So, the focus thing really interests me. So, have you got any other tips that you use to maintain focus?

Lance: I think you're right. We have way too much going on in our lives. And it's about unraveling what is important. It’s these two techniques I use. One is called the balance wheel, I call it the balance wheel. We also help bring balance back to our lives. So, the actual practical exercise, it's hard to explain, sort of draw circle you divide into eight and you put what's important to you on each one of those little spokes. And then you, one to ten and you work out on one to ten on each of those spokes where you sit. And then you draw a line around it and it tells you whether your balance within the circle or not.

Terence: That's great.

Lance: That’s all you're doing. And it has to be done with a pen and pencil or pen and a piece of paper. And the reason for that as it unravels now right. So, if you're born after 1980 you have 90 thousand thoughts today whereas old people like me, we have fifty to seventy thousand thoughts a today. So, the brains are going flat air. Stop it, it's bad for you. And the other one is, I've met with people who say “My life is so busy, I've got so much going on in work. Look at how much work I've got.”. Oh, let's write them down what have you got to do and they always come up with five – five things. And they get all of it much more than that. Well how much more? And I like, I'm not sure. And you can see that they get embarrass. And so, they think Oh but each one of us five tasks, there's a lot in it. Alright, well let's go on each one of those tasks. It's only as if a two little job within a five day so we may get to ten, right? Which ones can you give away? Which can mark as unimportant? Which ones we're going to focus on? Let's number them. One to three.

Terence: That's prioritization.

Lance: Prioritization. And that's what you do. And some people want to do the difficult things first. Other people want to pick the lowest hanging fruit. Cause it’s much sound and to get that energy going.

Terence: Yeah.

Lance: So, it's up to you. But pen and paper, there's lots and lots and lots of good research out there around writing stuff down and how it does. If you've got a difficult challenge and you like to make a difficult decision, shall I sell a house? Shall I get a new job? Whatever. Write it down. You do the pros and cons, write those down as well. When you write stuff down on a piece of paper, it puts it into your subconscious brain. And of course, you're either going to be in the shower, you're going to be exercising or mowing the lawn to vacuuming the house, polishing the car, and in those mundane jobs that we do, and all of a sudden that idea. Or three in the morning, when you really need it,

Terence: That could be dangerous.

Lance: Yeah. Never write down when it happens in three in the morning because this is rubbish. Yeah. But what it does, the idea will come to you.

Terence: Yeah.

Lance: Because it's in your subconscious.

Terence: Never make major decisions at 3am in the morning I think that’s the message.

Lance: No!

Terence: I'm hoping, right, that a whiteboard is equivalent to pen and paper because for me, I love using the whiteboard.

Lance: Absolutely! And for me also that's how I get to learn. So, when I'm studying I will write things on a whiteboard because it's alternate to pen and paper. And it works. It’s actually a trick.

Terence: Yeah. Yeah, it's great. I'm constantly finding, as I especially if I'm generating content or ideas or whatever the case is, I’ll all start on the whiteboard mapping things out. And then quite often I end up with too much so I'll have to take a photo, something I can come back to later on.

Lance: Yeah, that's really cool.

Terence: Where can people find that balance wheel?

Lance: Well there's quite a few places out there that do it. So, you use a Google the balance a little come up with she said Google, Google it now. You'll have to do that these days?

Nadia: I'm not sure of it either.

Lance: I always teach people never Google if you've got an injury or an illness because you'll die. Don't Google it. You know you'll always end up with, what is it, rash, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, heart palpitations, cancer, death and all you did was put in there “Why did my fingernails keep breaking?”. If you're on medication, long term medication, don't Google it. Yeah, because you are the 1 percent that dies from that. So, go to the doctor. Get your advice from a professional. People will then jump on Google medical. It would jump on Google every time.

Nadia: I have a bit loaded questions but, what made you, oh really was as reading your book and I looking at your blogs and well you have a blog and I looked at a few of your articles and everything. At what point of time have you realize this ability in yourself to help people?

Lance: Cool. A loaded question, right? I had depression. I had burnout in 1999. I actually had suicidal ideation. I wanted to kill myself. I was working for the police at the time and doing ridiculous hours in three years without a break. When I was…

Nadia: 1999?

Lance: 1999 was my darkest.

Nadia: And what month was it?

Lance: I don't know. We don't, go there. That was when I wanted to jump out the window.

Nadia: It's the year I arrived to this country.

Lance: Oh. So, it might have been coincidence. I know Nadia’s here is a bit early. I can’t talk about it now.

Terence: Nadia, don’t do it I’m going to jump out.

Lance: So, there’s only so many people we can have in the country. No. Yes, I had a terrible time to be honest. And the diagnosis at the time was accumulated stress disorder. And I was doing some long hours, some horrible jobs. And it’s clearly, it's in my book clear around some of that, some of the stuff that you have do and built up. And you don't tell your partner about it because what you want to go home bother them. In fact, what you should do is actually go and tell them. So, I had a bad time and I started reading. Now take a step back. I joined the police at the age of 35. So, I was a builder before then and had no idea what the stuff was like and how it could build up on you. And then when I finally did fall over, I started reading and I read a self-help book. And I look back on that book now and I think it was called Luoise’. It’s from Louise Hay is it You Can Heal Your Life or something like that. And I read it now and I think Oh goodness me. What would you get out of that? It doesn't sort of make sense now. But it was, it hit me. And then I decided to start studying and the three diplomas and a master's later. All of a sudden and so, I just started learning and I had this thirst for knowledge when somebody could show me that you can learn. I would have been diagnosed with an A.D.H.D. I think as a child. Because I was just a little tyrant.

Nadia: Well have you also diagnosed as shoplifting as a child?

Lance: I did shoplift when I was a child. You have read the book, haven’t you? I did become a police officer so I've made up for that. And the shop that was there is now gone.

Nadia: And you got this thing for the girls in bikini. Short, short shorts.

Lance: Shorts?

Nadia: Bikini.

Lance: Short shorts. Right. Yes.

Nadia: That’s it.

Lance: You've read the book very well.

Nadia: I remember quite few things.

Lance: I really want to, I guess help people. But there was an interesting you said when did I even know that this was. Well I'll tell you, probably about a month ago was when it was a sudden realization of. So, when I do my blogs now, they're all based on research, I know, but there research or readings that I've done a while ago. And so, I go back to try and get it right.

Nadia: But there are four hundred two articles, are they all written by you?

Lance: Yeah.

Nadia: Really?

Lance: Yeah. Absolutely.

Nadia: That’s how many articles you’ve written?

Lance: Now I write. So as blogging, every two or three days. But then yeah I tell you. I do it once a week now because obviously it takes a lot of time. And I just take research and science and all that sort of stuff and just make an anecdote out of it. Or perhaps showing people for example, you talked about that one about the called that voice. We all have that voice. Now, it starts in our childhood. Each of VGC do lock the door so that, shut the door so you can't get any, you'll be staying in your bed. It doesn't matter if you get dark or if you get scared. And that builds up – that voice. And we all have it. We have a younger self inside of us and that's our biggest critic. That's the one that when you are feeling down when you do get low it tells you that you're an idiot, you're a failure, you should be better. That you should you should you should. And it just continually spins and your head. So that one about that voice and how to control it. So, I teach people that we are all the same. I'd love to show people, in my sessions, and I do it in every single session. I start off with the brain and how it works and how to control all that thinking and stuff. We overthink things too much and that's due to catastrophize our action. So, I teach how to stop that. And then I talk to them about that voice that continually plays on our mind and how to stop it, and why it's there. And then I finish up with something called the impersonator which is another thing we have inside of us. Again, they’re all associated. The impersonator is somebody that tells you that you shouldn't be doing this, that you're not as good as the next person. Then to wait till your birthday or to wait till Christmas till I do this. I'll just put it off release. And it just talks to you the whole time. It's you. The way I say to people, never go to bed early. Why? Because that voice comes to you inside your head and says I'm glad you've come to bed early. I've got a couple of questions to ask you. And next thing, it's three in the morning and you you're talking to yourself. There’s no one in your room and it’s in your head. And so really, all of the stuff’s around controlling your thoughts.

Nadia: And you become good at it, when?

Lance: I’m so not good at it.

Nadia: I will hunt you down for this…

Lance: I'm not good at it. I still aren't. I forget this. So, I teach technique of how to get to sleep within five breaths. It's called The Nine Breath Technique and the things...

Nadia: You said five?

Lance: Yeah but most people go to sleep within five. And I learned on the course I was on in fact in Byron Bay. And positive psychology course and I've started to use it to get to sleep and other people have now found it's very helpful to get sleep. But I keep forgetting it when I'm in fight or flight, when I'm trying to get to sleep and I can't get to sleep and I'm, the stuff going on inside my head. And all a sudden, this thought will come. What about breathing? And I go ah I never thought about it. How silly is that? How do I teach it? We know it takes sixty to eighty days about to change a habit. About sixty to eighty days, not twenty-one days. And so that's where your brain holds you in positions. There’s a friend of mine who's writing a book due for publication in August, around the twenty-one day, must. Now she's proven that it's not twenty-one days. So that's a long time to change behavior, isn't it? What wary is…

Nadia: That's why it's difficult because…

Lance: It is.

Nadia: you have to stay committed at all cost. It’s hard to stay on focus. Your brain will try and trick you at twenty-one days, that's where it comes from. It'll say hey, hey, you need to come back here. It'll make. And that's why a lot of people, not a lot of people. Some people find it hard to come out of the mire when they are in depression. Apart from the things are going on there head when chemical imbalances etc. because they know this. They are comfortable in their uncomfortableness. It is safe and it is secure. They fear coming out they’ll get hurt again. They fear coming out, things will change. They fear that they won't be able to come out so they may not even start. And it's giving people confidence that, look you need to start taking control and you can do this. It's not an immediate process. It's not like taking a pill. The conscious and unconscious mind is not like here. Here’s an injection, here some pills, you'll be fine. It’s not.

Nadia: I've suffered from insomnia and when I read about you popping the pills and you used to go to sleep, you just knock yourself out.

Lance: Yeah, I sleep like a baby.

Nadia: I can relate.

Lance: Waking me every half hour.

Nadia: Exactly. I basically rather than I could. It's resonated with me because I would go through some crisis in life and the only thing that I would be resorting to these sleeping pills. What do I do? I’m popping pills now. Or you're so, like so many degrees later, you can get so…

Lance: I can get to sleep, although I am a terrible sleeper. But I find that I can get to sleep. It’s staying asleep. This is my biggest one now. One thing is as you get older, things change biologically. But I do drink a lot of water so at some point I have to get up and go to the toilet which is just one of those physiological things. I've never slept better in my whole life than I am now in the last year or two. One because I'm safe and secure to. Well I've got a good business going, I've got a great family surrounding me and my wife. God loves she's been with me.

Nadia: Donna?

Lance: We've been, Donna. We've been together for forty-two years and I've been married for thirty-eight. Have I got that right? No, it’s 38. I've got it yeah. Nadia: You only forget it once.

Lance: So, I feel a lot better and a lot more comfortable. Sometimes I don't sleep and when I don't, I don't care anymore. Now one of the things about not getting to sleep is we worry that we aren't getting to sleep and we're going to be tired the next day. And that plays on his mind and then the next night we worry that we're not going to get to sleep. And then the next night. Let me tell you, physiologically you will crash at some point. And I've developed, so I have a document I can send to people for free. They just got to on to my website and ask me to lift my Google rankings on how to get to sleep. And a lot of it is, we weren't told. So, for example it said if you don't get to sleep within thirty minutes it's best to get up and go and read a book and then come back. I say stay there.

Nadia: I’d do the same I’m too lazy.

Lance: It’s the same. So, I say stay there. Just think about one thing and just think about that the whole time. Stop your brain. So, I teach how to slow brains down and how to, our brains are busy so how to start with something big moving down to something small then stop. And you do that three times and you'll be asleep. It's just stay and be. What? It's said that you shouldn't have naps in the afternoon. It is said. I say have a nap. Don't come around my house on a Saturday and Sunday afternoon because I'm having a little power nap. I'll do half an hour. Exactly. Well some people don't like it. But…

Nadia: Oh, I love it.

Lance: some people wake up…

Nadia: There’s a part when your drinking and come to sleep and so you have it.

Lance: So, it's what works for you. Don't force a stuff. We get a new pillow and we have it for an hour and we throw it on the floor and go that pillow’s not good. Will it’s only have been in an hour. Let’s try for two or three nights and see what happens. So, don't. Just try and relax as best you can. I had insomnia. And now I don't. I don't have it so much.

Nadia: Will after this we will see. How is? Well practice what you preach.

Lance: I never preach. I suggest.

Nadia: Well that’s. English is your first language so you can't play with it so I have just sit and take it, it’s fine. Lance: I like to see you’re very good at that.

Nadia: So basically, the biggest problem of start-ups they don't get enough sleep. They work themselves and they go. I talk to Terence about that. They are always at night or do something, silly things, which other people should be trained to do for them. They have this fear of delegation. Now speaking of fears, you do have an article about fear and you believe that you can make you fear work for you. How does it effect? Lance: So, you use your energy to work for you. Now I just want to go back if I can on what you originally say about invoicing. So, I was invoicing. I was that person. So, it was just me. And that's how we do when we start a business. So, I was doing seven days a week, 12/14 hours a day. And it does get to you. But sometimes you.

Nadia: Would you do it different now?

Lance: Sometimes you have to do it. No, I would never do anything differently. No.

Nadia:

Lance: I would. I would. I would send invoices on a Sunday. And the reason for that is, because it's busy. So, and you don't want to start paying wages. And that's a lot of companies get into trouble. They invest heavily without getting runs on the board. So, in other words, they haven't got. They've got a product, they've got this, they've got computers, they've got everyone, they’ve got people. Now what? Build It. They Will Come. Not necessarily as the case. So, build it as they come. That’s what I suggest. And so, now I do. I'm very lucky my wife works for me and my son. They both work for me. So, one does IT and the other ones does all the adamant for me so I do have a little time.

Nadia: You have a team of people, are they all your customers, clients or something? You're everywhere. You’re on your Facebook. I stalk you by the way. Is it legal? Is it not okay?

Lance: It's illegal.

Nadia: Why?

Lance: No, you’re right.

Nadia: You did not say anything. So, you're always surrounded by people who just have these achievement on their faces that they like. I may be reading wrong their facial expression but they have this, they achieved something no one did. So, there's people around you?

Lance: Believe it or not no, it’s not the case. Because all those people that are there that I forgot photos on it, there's not many photos of me on my Facebook page. Those people are people I've met along the way who are achieving, yes, but have all gone through turmoil and have come out the other side. So, they are successful because they've been there.

Nadia: Or maybe they, it's you take this pictures after workshop or something when they connected to the people who goes.

Lance: No, a couple of, we hardly even…

Nadia: Oh, now I have to look at your photos.

Lance: I walk on him but you can look my photos again. But no, they weren't after. Well you saw, you're right. Some were. So, the actual workshop photos, yes. So, if you have a look at some of those, yes. During the workshops. I've seen some photos of when I'm running workshops and their faces people just staring at me intensely and I'm thinking Oh I wonder. Now I know why I'm uncomfortable answers if I'm up on stage or in front of an audience or whatever. Cause people stare at me like these intense eyes. And I guess…

Nadia: I think to skirt hate this. Yeah. So, I think about this operation.

Lance: So, I guess it sort of goes into your question earlier. How did I know when this was the right thing to do? Well it's only been a recent revelation to me as I've got more comfortable. I'm the most nervous public speaker ever. I'm sure.

Nadia: How do you know that you are the most?

Lance: I will say without a doubt about it. I've got this great ability to have this relaxed, I guess, posture of poise. Like when you see me tomorrow at the BITE Conference, know that inside me I'm doing backflips generally.

Nadia: Really?

Lance: But when I get up there, something just seems to happen. And I just open up.

Nadia: So what happens to your chest?

Lance: Nothing. It's all on my stomach. And when you get nervous you get a dump of chemicals into your stomach. And attuned up the food and it gives you that nervous butterfly feeling that's what that butterflies, is about it's just the chemicals on it. And sometimes earlier on in my career I didn't even hear my voice for the first five minutes. I'd be up on stage talking and I never heard a word. I didn't know what I was saying. It was just the most ridiculous thing. And I just kept talking and hoping the words were coming out. I was nervous. Some people come up to me and go wow you're so relaxed up there. And I'm like yeah thanks. And little did they know I was about to throw up on the audience, sitting in the front row of my guest.

Nadia: Hahahaha! You are in trans see you.

Lance: So, it is. But now, and I still have that nervous feeling and it's a good feeling. I think once you don't get nervous then you drop the ball. So tomorrow you'll see me before any gig particularly keynote presentation.

Nadia: I won't be sitting in the front row. Or I’ll bring an umbrella.

Lance: When I do those keynote presentations. There's a lot of energy comes with it. And so, I'll be down the back and I'll be going through it. And it's only short. It’s forty minutes but I'll be going through it and going. Are you storing to say no. And then I'll get up and off forget the whole lot of what I'm going to say. And even Hannah would turn around and look to see Oh that picture I’ll talk to that one now. And then it just sort of floats. Then it changes for every audience. Some people have seen me four times. A guy the other day said, “I've seen you four times now do the same presentation but each time it's different.” And so, I say yeah. That means that I've read a book recently and I've just introduced something small. So, my program stay. There's nothing older than two years.

Nadia: Has it ever happened to you, a bit off topic, but it's happened that you just talk and suddenly an idea pops in your head. It just, women process information this way and men usually have to be silent to think. Lance: Uhhh. Don't start me on men and woman. We think exactly the same things. We do. I mean, I've learnt to compartmentalize it. So particularly, when we become emotional. So again, it's something that evolutionary and all of us, we have the same emotions.

Nadia: Is it men becoming soft or women became tougher?

Lance: No. So, we are the same. What men do is that we are still the same as women.

Nadia: Why are we morphing into something…

Lance: What we do is. Well it's good. But so, what we are morphing to be more like each other – men and women.

Nadia: Come boring.

Lance: Because of social media or because of the fact we're not socializing. Because we like talk with people so there's no differences. So, fifty percent of our brains, everyone in the world, is the same. Neuroscience teach us. Ten percent is where you're born, forty percent is your personality. What you've done in your life, that formed your personality which is influenced by your culture, etc. So, here's an example. A puppy comes into the house and running across towards a man. Inside his head he's thinking oh look at that little puppy, that is cute. What comes out of his mouth, if that dog pees on the carpet I'm going to kick it out. The stains they're all bold and strong. Because men compartmentalized emotions. If we showed emotion thousands of years ago, we were killed. So, we've now learned to go put a net box and I call it that SHIT box. Let's put it in there. Let's put it in there. Let's put it in there. And we keep putting that stuff in there. Now we know that men are represented two to one in depression, four to one in suicide because of, in part or mostly I think, because of that one little reason that we compartmentalize.

Nadia: Oh, they explode and make all the walls dirty.

Lance: That’s exactly it. So, we just. Sometimes we just let it go and all hell breaks loose. So, it's all we do. Woman think the same, on emotional situation.

Nadia: Well I was preferred to think otherwise. However, we always considered to be superior to you guys, right? Emotionally.

Lance: Alright. Yeah, yeah. So, multitasking, is it part of it?

Nadia: Oh, multitasking was cancelled recently, completely off the chart.

Lance: There is no such thing we can hold three things in our frontal lobe. And woman have got this ability to change from one to the other very quickly which simulates multitasking.

Nadia: But’s it’s an illusion. Because unwavering…

Lance: I don't want to get into that discussion. I'm sitting too close to you.

Nadia: So, this fear if I clean it up a bit. This question, fear. How can I utilize the energy of fear?

Lance: So, fear is just energy. Alright.

Nadia: Everybody is scared. Everybody is scared to start their business. Everybody is scared to say no. Everybody is scared to say yes.

Lance: Totally agree. So, I. You've heard me, I like mantra’s, don’t I? Run to the fire. I call it run to the fire. If you fear something, run to it. Go towards it. That's what emergency responders do. That's what, I mean special forces soldiers, that's what the Army do.

Lance: Do you see these men?

Lance: Yes.

Nadia: He is a firefighter.

Lance: Yeah. What do you do? Run to the fire. Put it out. So, I like it because you use the energy in a positive way. It is. Fear is designed. Now fear is where we freeze. If you’ve heard of fight, flight and freeze, for a lot of us when we fear something we freeze. We just stand still. We don't run unsure whether to go forward or to go back, whatever. If somebody was to walk in here now with a gun and fire, the whole, all of us in this room would freeze because that's an immediate shock. And then as our brain started to come down a little bit, we then say well what are we going to do? Are we going to run to the fire and tackle that person with a gun or we're going to run away?

Nadia: Biologically, what freeze suppose to achieve?

Lance: Freeze, it just gives you time to hold in that position. No, you don't. And so that's why animals end up in possums and head light. You've heard that one, haven’t you? They have fear with the head lights. They get run over by a car. So, freeze is not something that we should do. So, run to the fire. Business is a funny thing. And I was reluctant to start my business. And there was a good friend of mine Jonathan, do you know?

Nadia: What was your fear?

Lance: of failure.

Nadia: Exactly.

Lance: Fear of failure. And being found out of. It all comes from an imposter. And so, I had some good people around me that said look don't. The worst part of going into business is making the decision to go into business. Once you go into business, you think what was I worried about? That happens and unfolds. And so that if anyone out there is thinking I don't really want to do this it might fail. Don't think of what's the worst that can happen but what is the worst that can happen if you don't do it. You would always think what if. And because I'm relatively older now, I wish that hype yesterday.

Nadia: How old are you? Am I allowed to ask? Or you just like woman now?

Lance: I'm sixty now.

Nadia: Sixty?

Lance: Yeah.

Nadia: You looking good. Are you hit?

Terence: To me that's kind of the consequences of inaction. What are the consequences of not taking action. Because most people think about hey what are the consequences if I do this. But sometimes they forget to look at the other side. What's going to happen if I don't take action?

Lance: Right. Yeah. That’s so guilt and regret. So, rumination guilt and regret leads the rumination and I wish I had. Now for me. I wish I had is probably worse for you than worry and stress and everything else.

Nadia: Because you run out of time.

Lance: Yeah. We've got no time left in you. For me the timing was right though. I think it was perfect because I had to build up a knowledge around what I'm doing these days. And so, I produced some videos. Now some people say how can you expand your business to get other people to? Well no I don't want to do that because it's such a unique product that I've got. So, what I've done now is produced a short training videos and I'm working with somebody and we’re producing work books, etc. for these things. So that's how I can replicate myself and it's going to be sold internationally.

Terence: And that's a leveraged product.

Lance: It's a leverage. Yeah that's exactly it. So, here's me. And if you want not me but you want to, you got a thousand staff you can't get. You might be franchised, like a jewelry store or whatever. Across the country or servers or whatever it is. You can run some videos across your organization and get them to go on and have a look at that. So, there is another ability. So, and that didn't come to me overnight. So, I met this person. That person did a couple of filming and didn't feel right. And I went with one company and that sort of fell over. So eventually, now we've got to a place where trial and error. It’s a reasonable place to be. So, it's all around timing I guess and the timing has to be right.

Nadia: Lance I have a question for you. It’s, I came across with this just recently and I just said that's what my fears.

Lance: The imposter syndrome.

Nadia: The imposter syndrome. Can you unpack it a bit for our listener? It's an interesting one. I was just like wow.

Lance: Well it’s out of fear and all that sort of stuff. Our brain wants to keep us in the same position so that it knows what it knows and it's comfortable. It's designed, I guess, to keep us safe. It is. And that's evolutionary. But what it does is it sees you, it competes you with other people. You look at other people I'm sure we've all done this. We’ve looked at somebody and said I bet they had an advantage, I bet they had money, I bet they had a context, I'd bet they had. And so, I started reading autobiographies. No, they didn't. All they did was they ignored that voice inside their head and they stepped outside of the comfort zone. It's a horrible step to take. Can I say? It really is. So, I can recall three months after starting my business, I’ve built this website and thought yay, launch it then they'll come. And so, I'm gone. Just left the police and I was on a holiday with my wife in Europe. So, the police give you the money saying thank you very much, shake your hand, he's got the money. So, we just to go on a cruise and get rid of it all. And so, I built this website and I thought oh I didn't have one person come to it’s like what's wrong with me? And I remember picking up the phone doing cold calls. Hi, I'm Lance. We’re not interested. Sorry. So okay. Would you mind if I sent you some? And I started building scripts. I'd be sitting downstairs in my pajamas at 3:00 in the afternoon doing e-mails and phone calls. I wanted to get myself out there, I wanted to build a business. So that thirst, that hunger you didn't want to let go. Sort of three four months down the track you think why am I doing this. You'd find yourself sneak up to one of those hiring, labor hire places or something like that or the situations vacant and think maybe I should get a real job. Again, it's that imposter. It is that one that sees you and never as good as you think you are. I know people in high positions that are waiting for somebody to come along and say hey this is not you. We found out that you're not as good as you think you are. Get out. It's designed to keep us safe.

Nadia: But it's our current brain or they call dinosaur brain. What about, a country can sell their current things to keep us safe and this self-actualization with Maslow?

Lance: Yeah, I love Maslow.

Nadia: So where do we fit?

Lance: So, yeah. Maslow’s interesting little guy, if he's around now I think he probably changed his model. You can't get to self-actualization which is the top of it if you haven't got the basics which he was right – food, water, shelter. And money goes alongside that these days.

Nadia: Because that’s security.

Lance: Because that’s safety and security, isn't it? So, all of those would be joined together now, what are they?

Nadia: Yes.

Lance: Socialization is the one that's missing.

Nadia: It's up, completely went rogue because it just people is they deprived.

Lance: Absolutely. So, we've got these phones and now we can do whatever we want and we can seem stuff and tell people, and send emojis and stuff like that instead of talking to people. So, I think really that I like that self can you self-actualize without the basic? No, but once you've got the basic yes you can. And it's about socializing. Go and talk with people. There’s ways of doing it.

Nadia: Because they know what I was thinking about it and I'm thinking. And then I found, I can't remember what book I read or something came across, why humans being so weak and fickle and can't pay us in a great way to say it, but we're in comparison to other species, lions, I don't know. even horses. We excel in evolution better. And what is it about us so different because we are not very strong?

Lance: Yeah, it's interesting. So, we spend more time in our left brain and in our right brain. So, animals spend a lot of time in the right brain which is the danger brain. That's always looking for danger and sort. Whereas humans spend a lot of time in their left which is logic, less language, calmness, that working stuff out. So, they surface in humans and animals. We're left brainers.

Nadia: And I also think while it's it comes as a support of everything you have said so far. We are successful as a specie because we’re communicating with each other. The neuro activity while we’re communicating is exploding. In comparison, many of them can look and learn from the book. My neuro activity in comparison when I'm talking to you, would be pale.

Lance: Yeah that's right. So, when we're reading a book we're in left brain.

Nadia: And when I talk to you…

Lance: I don't want to get into any philosophical discussion around this. Or whether that's religion or evolutionary or work. I'm not going in there.

Nadia: Whatever.

Lance: You have to pick somebody else for that. I just stick to what I know. I'm sorry.

Nadia: Well I might interview the Pope one day.

Lance: Good luck.

Nadia: Do you have contact? Do you have his phone number?

Lane: I doesn’t have somebody in Venice that could probably help you…

Terence: I just want to come back to quickly. We say run to the fire.

Lance: Yes.

Terence: Are some people are naturally better equipped for that than others?

Lance: Yes. So again, it comes down to now, some people call it resilience, some people. And it's all to do with our childhood now, up-bringing, our metagon. Heard a guy talk. He's over here quite a bit. He's a Kiwi guy called Nathan Wallace. Interesting guy. He knows everything about brains. From birth right through to teenagers. And the first hours thousand days, it's something you're stuck with me. The first thousand days of our life forms who we are. And so, if children are challenged in the right way, they will not only become more resilient they will become more resourceful lobby. They'll be looking to go to adventure and do the challenges. Whereas and it's all to do with parenting. So, if our parents said to us. We noticed with twins if they say to one you’re the tidy one or you're the clever one. That's how they’ll grow up.

Terence: Programming.

Lance: It’s programming, yeah. And so people they think oh I'm the tidy one. So I'll just tidy and you can study. So, that one parent being home for the first-year, full time, determines how a child will grow. So, there's all these number effect. And it comes out of something called Go Targo study out of New Zealand. It’s the longest study that's ever been done in the world. And I think it's up to 50 years now from birth. I just followed this group of people. And it's just revolutionizing the way we see things these days. And of course, MRI scanning. In the 80s we would measure a child's circumference of this skull to see if they were intelligent or not. And I looked back on that and go really?

Terence: The telling us how…

Lance: How clever is that? And then 1990s we had MRI scanning so we could read the brain a lot more. And now we have high frequency MRI so we have pet scanning and all. So, we're learning and learning. Learning more and more and more as we as we go through about human behaviour and development.

Terence: Okay so some of us, maybe from childhood, have a better ability. You can call resilience or running to the fire how you put it. How can, if we don't have that childhood, can we strengthen that muscle? Lance: Yes, we can. So, it comes from sort of psychology immersion therapy. And I like, one of the things I teach if you don't like doing something and it is part of your job, do more of it. So, you become accustomed to it otherwise you fear. Again, run to the fire. So, you can. We know that from people who fear flying or fear of spiders, they slowly introduce them to that and they keep doing it until there’s no fear.

Nadia: I would think it’s desensitizing.

Lance: Same with desensitization. It’s exactly the same. If we're allergic to something, they will slowly introduce that product that you're allergic to, to get used to it. It's exactly the same thing.

Nadia: I want to ask another question and then just a very quick one. Just. I read a few articles and one thing that have you and everything. Psychopath, seal and all these, there is a connection between people in power and their sex.

Lance: Psychopathy? Uhmmm.

Nadia: Yeah.

Lance: Yeah, I…

Nadia: Is it true this why they abstain?

Lance: No, it isn’t true. So, I'm. So, yeah. I don't know too much around psychopathy or psychopaths. But it is said that, we know that some soldiers, special forces soldiers, etc. have a tendency toward some traits. Athletes, extreme athletes also have that. So, people that do ultramarathons, etc. You can't go and run a hundred-mile race, in my opinion, as a normal person. It's just not. And there's some wonderful people doing wonderful things out there. You have to be different. I thought I was lucky enough I went to Delhi Commonwealth Games and the London Olympics. And in Delhi in particular, were it was about 40 degree heat. A Boxer had to lose some weight so he put on a hundred jackets and rode a bike in the sun for two and a half hours. And then beating down sun to lose weight causing it to lose weight for this fight the next day. Now I've put it out there that perhaps you've got that desire to achieve but you can't be, quote and quote, normal to do that. So, it's got to be something there. Narcissism is another thing. So, narcissism is, and I could think of straight away a world leader that has OCPD that's so they, it's all about them and how good they are.

Nadia: Well in the business context, you quite often facing narcissism would be group narcissism. When you belong to certain organization as there is complex of superiority and all this happened.

Lance: Yeah, it’s true.

Nadia: But this psychopathy in business really struck me because we do deal every day. With people as certain which have lack of empathy which was just talk to you like you just do something completely. Belittle you in every step of the way and that's. So, what are traits of self-purpose? I don't know why I'm talking about it.

Lance: I mean, I don't know enough about psychopathy to talk about it to be honest.

Nadia: The reason why I asked because there’s criminals, a lot of criminals.

Lance: Yeah. We do know. Oh, in that respect, I can talk to you about that because I've actually met with them and spoken with them and negotiated with them. One in particular, I was thinking about, he killed a young man. Strangled him in the back of a prison van with his own hands. And every year that criminal goes mad and goes off the rails. And so, this one year he was third or fourth anniversary of the death of a young man he strangled. He kidnapped another prisoner and tied him to a chair and was cutting his throat with a knife and then I was called in to do some negotiation with them. Now what's happened to that when you find out, criminals in particular those people that are that are psychopaths, there's something that's happened to them in their childhood. As a general rule, they've had all of their emotions beaten out of them. Beaten, burned, kicked, whatever. So, there is a couple of psychopaths in prison in New Zealand that I've met and I have read about. And so, with them is all we do is we play on the ego which allows us to replace them. But it's very hard to if you've got, what you're saying about a psychopathic CEO, it’s very hard to get through to those people. I know I'm going into a couple of weeks from, in fact next week, I've got an organization. I’ve been warned that the boss who's coming along to it, is one of those people. Has no. No, we’re not naming. Has absolutely no empathy, has no emotional intelligence, does not know how to do a stuff. And so I'm going to have fun.

Nadia: But some people say, argue that the emotional intelligence doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a science about that. Nobody think that. Nobody can measure it.

Lance: I think perhaps. So, I'm not big on the term emotional intelligence but I guess it's a tool that's nice. Some of us are able to identify another's to be more empathic or empathetic, which ever you like. I prefer empathic because empathetic sounds like sympathetic. So, I prefer the word empathic but they both mean the same. So, some of us are more like that. Now I, having gone through depression myself, can see it than others and others can’t see me. I don't know what it is but that's what happens with parts of the brain when we have been through something. We see it in others. Again, it all comes back to childhood. Some of it's genetic. Some of it might be some issues with the brain. But a lot of it is learned behavior or the way we were dealt with in early childhood. They might be suppressing some, a lot of suppressing things. Putting it in those boxes and locking it away. That's usually what causes that stuff.

Nadia: Well I'm quite happy in his answers.

Terence: On that note, I think, So, Lance is here for the BITE conference. Which is by the time we actually published this, it will be over for 2018. But I'm sure people can look it up for 2019? And maybe you'll be back again for the 2019 BITE Conference.

Lance: Not sure. We’ll see how we go tomorrow.

Terence: But thanks a lot for flying straight in here. Coming to say something, spend some time with us, answering all of our questions. Some good, some maybe not so good.

Nadia: Thank you.

Terence: And this is generally…

Nadia: He has to have…

Terence: I have got a page full of notes, stuff that I've taken down.

Nadia: I have too. So, I have one.

Terence: Well we’ve got both pages full of notes. Now tell us, where can people find out more about you and buy your stuff?

Lance: Buy my stuff? Yeah. Well I don't have a lot of stuff. But thank you. So they can go to WARN international dot com. That's WARN international, all one word, dotcom. WARN stands for Wellness Awareness Resilience and Negotiation. That's where that word comes from. If they go there to my website, we do have a little shop. I have the rubberband and on that rubberband, it's got flick it away. But if you look at, actually when you read it first time it looks like a different word.

Terence: Yeah. Hahaha.

Lance: Yeah. I'm getting a small pin that you can wear on a suit whatever. It's a brain surrounded by a heart. I love heart. So, the heart will always overcome the brain. So, that we can identify as we walk on the street Oh so you've got a badge of honor. You've been through depression. You've been suicidal. We've got a family member. So, we can share. We are more similar than we are different. Every single person in the world. And I convince people of that. That's one of the things that I convince as I was going back to earlier, that we are all the same. So, if you go to my website there's lots of helpful things – how to get the sleep. You just go and ask for it on the dropdown box it's under. I think it's hints and tips. If you go on the dropdown, I will send it to you for free. Yep and have a look around and if you want to get in touch, you can buy my book off there, it's a bestseller.

Nadia: I wanted to ask about the book. Behind the Tape?

Lance: Behind the Tape. Yep.

Nadia: Yes. And basically, you do have a link there to buy the book?

Lance: Yeah there is there is. And you'll get the book signed. It's actually cheaper than in shops and you get it signed.

Nadia: Where is mine?

Terence: Well you’ve obviously read it already. You don’t need it.

Lance: I’ll send you one. Yeah, I’ll devalue it for you.

Nadia: The book was written from your heart. It's created an illusion that I know you now. And when I met you, you just probably say what this strange lady doing. But that's just created an illusion of me knowing you. How much of these book is you and how much did you have to write?

Lance: Yeah, it's me. The only thing that I did have to get a ghostwriter and Nick was a very good great ghostwriter. I have got another bit of person to do it. So, I was writing very chronologically. And matter of fact. And the reason for that is I had traumatic events. And you would have read some of them. A normal person is not supposed to find somebody chopping up another human being and putting them into a suitcase. It's just not normal to find that stuff. And so, it was buried deep inside my brain. So, she came in and interviewed me and I just spoke like I'm talking now. I don't even know these microphones exist. I just like my heart and it's I did so different parts of my brain opened-up. I cried a lot throughout the sessions. I remember there's a unique characteristic that I want to do more research on police will go through. It doesn't matter where it is in the world, I say seven years they will have a meltdown of some sort. And as I was saying that to her I just suddenly teared up and I said gee it was exactly to the day. And I just, I was just it was just amazing.

Nadia: So, it must be so much you can take…

Lance: And so, all that stuff comes. Yeah. And so, it's the seven-year itch and all those. Our brains work in 3s, 5s and 7s. So, I don't even want to go here. I don't want to research it but that's what it is said. So, my heart is in that book and I had to do it. Not read it nine times and I have to say the editing has been done very well. I didn't do the editing on it but. But those descriptions of walking through the prison, smelling fish, smelling urine, smelling vomit, hearing noises, listening to clanging of doors that was almost me. That was all. And so, I describe it in such a way and I find that person good as I walk into the house of this guy chopping up a woman, who after stabbing her or killing her, the blood on the wall and I'll never forget it. You don't forget those things. Taking out a dying, a dead baby of a young mom, you just don't forget those things.

Nadia: That was my sensation was it was a privilege of living vicariously it is. It’s I was a cop, that cop living through this big shade. Day to day I am an accountant but that this book gives me entry to your mind, the way you process thing and your emotions, your experiences sexually deep puts you in to depression almost in some places and then they bring you out because you keep moving on.

Lance: Thank you.

Nadia: It’s a journey it was for me.

Lance: And that's what I wanted to do just say that's what's called Behind the Tape. So, what it is really like. I talk about some negotiations I did and some of them were terrible, terrible negotiation.

Nadia: A lot of people now. Now they write a book and that's all the tips and traps and everything. But people are writing from the heart…

Lance: That's going to be on my second book.

Nadia: What? From the heart?

Lance: Tricks and tips. I did. I did it the other way around. So, my next one is on the work I do now.

Nadia: Okay.

Lance: See how our brains are all the same.

Nadia: Well, I am actually grateful for the experience of giving the world in this book. Plus coming here generously done I understand despite the fact that you are very tired.

Lance: Thank you.

Nadia: Thank you for accepting BITE invitation.

Lance: Thank you. No, it's very good. Thank you.

Terence: So, thanks a lot Lance. So, WARN international dot com. The book is Behind the Tape. Thanks Lance Burdett.

Lance: Thank you very much.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Unfair Advantage Project. For more curated resources, visit us at unfairadvantageproject.com.