Episode 3: Forensic Interviewing Techniques with Jonathan Davison

Narrator: Welcome to the Unfair Advantage Project - unique perspectives, practical insights, and unexpected discoveries directly focus on giving you the unfair advantage. Introducing your hosts Nadia Hughes and Terence Toh.

Terence: Hi, Terence here and welcome to the Unfair Advantage Project. On today's episode were interviewing Jonathan Davison who is the founder and managing director of a company called Forensic Interview Solutions and also an ex-detective with 12 years-experience with the Manchester Police in the UK. Jonathan shared some great information with us about how we can use the right questions to improve our decision making in business and actually generally in our lives. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode of the Unfair Advantage Project.

Nadia: Jonathan again thank you. And today's podcast is about giving our listeners unfair advantage in comparison to the ones who are not going to listen to our podcast. And this unfair advantage comes obviously to business owners. It's about tips and trips you can share with them. Your journey into business, how, where did it all started and how did you come to such a great success? First tell me about, oh not me but our listeners about yourself. What happened to you?

Jonathan: What happened to me?

Nadia: Why are you suddenly packing up and going to the US?

Jonathan: Well I'll put it in the context of a story that people can understand.

Nadia: That story is good.

Jonathan: Where I came from. As you can probably can tell by my accent I'm not Australian even though I've got a croaky voice today with a bit of monthly.

Nadia: Unless you put in a tone.

Jonathan: It could be, it could be my very ideal voice.

Terence: Very convincing.

Jonathan: But essentially in a previous life I was a detective and a police in the UK in Greater Manchester and my specialism was what you're doing now is interviewing people, so interviewing witnesses, victims and suspects.

Nadia: Are you a suspect?

Jonathan: Sometimes, not all the time.

Nadia: I’m suspecting you’re very successful.

Jonathan: Well if you ask my wife so you know, I don't celebrate the successes too much. It's a bit like my sporting career. Once you've achieved something you just move onto the next venture and next project. To give you a context, like I said I was a detective in the police. My specialism was also my curse because I didn't have a life outside of work. Everything was interviewing murderers, rapists, terrorists, all the nice people that you wouldn't want to speak to.

Nadia: Was a blossom of humanity.

Jonathan: Yeah. But don't get me wrong. All of them were actually involved in the commission of any crime. They may have been suspected of that and that was the thing that I actually enjoyed doing was actually speaking to people and finding out whether they were involved, whether they weren’t involved or what story they could actually tell me. It’s similar to what we're doing now. And again as we spoke before not interrogating them was going back to the old.

Nadia: I used the word interrogate and can you step me straight to where?

Jonathan: I know.

Nadia: Because you do not interrogate. Well I do, I’m Russian.

Jonathan: Well I'm not going to say that, just say the word allegedly and then that means it's alleged. It's not actually fact.

Nadia: Allegedly.

Jonathan: Yeah. Have you ever been recorded? But essentially after doing that for a number of years, I realized I didn't have a life. So I looked at getting a lifestyle beyond and that's when I migrated to New Zealand in 2006. And I was lucky to have some time out to travel the country, also come to Australia. And then at that time the police in Australia or New Zealand started to recruit British cops.

Nadia: Why is that?

Jonathan: It was a skills shortage.

Nadia: Oh I thought it was some fashion statement.

Jonathan: No no, not fashion statements. It was just a case at that time they were looking at recruiting skilled police officers. So before I knew it, I'd swapped Manchester where I was in Special Branch which is a flash word now for counter intelligence unit. So dealing with terrorists in the UK and asked what that for Auckland the Crime Squad were to became a detective there.

I was there for a year and things happen for a reason I think the same probably some of your listeners. I bought a property I couldn't afford because I couldn't access my UK pension. I had to go back to the UK then was asked to become a trainer. So I was training new recruits in the police right for the specialists in interviewing. We also were training external agencies as well, government agencies as well as private organizations as well that would pay the police to be trained. Again the realization of when you leave Auckland in New Zealand and go back to Manchester. It rains a lot. You never see the sun. And you suddenly realize what the hell am I doing back in Manchester in the UK rather than being in Auckland by the water. So after a year and a half back in the UK, I came back to New Zealand for the offer of a job that didn't materialize so the start of the company really was it wasn't by design. I found out later this manager that was going to employ me saw me as a threat and I was back in the country unemployed in the apartment I couldn't afford and essentially looking for a job. Nobody would give me a job and I knew that the Australian police forces and New Zealand police force had adopted the methodology I was a specialist in. So 10 years ago I thought well nobody's going to give me a job, get somebody to give me a job I'll set up a company. I'll start training investigators because I know this will be similar to the UK. And 10 years later I'm now heading towards moving the company. Oh, still keeping the company here down under but also setting up company in America with the demand for our services. So it's been a fantastic ride because selling off training on a small scale in New Zealand, we now have the likes of the United Nations, F.B.I., Australian Federal Police, Border Force as part of our clients. As well as in the private sector the likes of Wal-Mart retailers, banks, HSBC, insurance companies like AIG and we train both investigators, auditors, financial advisers anybody that has to gather information from people. We've trained them practically. So it's a, it's a great journey and now we actually you know employ people and contract people deliver services all over the world.

Nadia: So from desperation to thriving and to training the entire US systems, tell me why US? What's happened there?

Jonathan: What happened there was quite ironic. One of the models of training within the framework which is called PEACCCE which is an acronym for Planning and Preparation, Engage, Explain, Account, Clarification/ Challenge/ Closure, Evaluation. There's a framework of interviewing because even now you would have done some planning before this interview. We're having an engagement now finding out about me now gathering more information than you may want to clarify what you're doing now but why, why America? Also you may challenge inconsistencies. We'll have a closure to this interview and then afterwards we'll think about how well did do we do the interview. What could have done better? The evaluation. Under that framework is, oh it’s an American model called cognitive interviewing which was the cornerstone of I suppose when this was introduced in the UK it was because of false confessions and miscarriages of justice. And we're going right back to the 70s and 80s and any listeners who remember Birmingham bombings, the Guildford bombings, IRA suspects were, well basically tortured and forced to sign confessions. And this was the inception of the model that I was a specialist in an ethical way of interviewing people based on scientific research and that's populated round the Commonwealth as best practice. Now it's nice to say that we are ahead of the game and in America, they have a massive issue around false confessions. Anybody that's watched “Making a Murderer” on Netflix. True confessions. Serials like that are you getting an insight to how there's all talk about interrogations are conducted over there. They're looking to obtain confessions rather than trying to establish a truth. That's led to, well, certainly with groups like The Innocence Project over there. 350 people now have been exonerated in the States for crimes they were convicted of but they didn't actually commit. So you're talking about people who were convicted for murders, rapes, robberies. They may have confessed to those crimes but now the advancement of DNA but also revisiting those cases, people are being exonerated. And from state to state in America people are getting paid out extensively in terms of settlements. We're talking millions of dollars. Texas for example over the last 19 years have paid out over a hundred million dollars in compensation to people. And a lot of the origins of those issues have come from interviewing. So what really opened my eyes a couple of years ago just going to present at a conference there. Nobody knew about this technique which is a national standard now in Australia, New Zealand, the UK and now Canada. Nobody knew about this technique or even cognitive interviewing devised by American psychologists or an American technique. Nobody knew about it. So people over in the states have been looking for providers who have done some early research and that's where we've come into the equation and for the last couple of years I've been going over training police departments, investigators in the private sector and to a lesser extent now that has really been a bit of a crusade for myself to go. There is a need for this methodology to be brought to the States. Nobody else has done it. And I applied for what's called a National Interest Waiver which is quite ironic. I was just a detective. Nobody, nothing special. We applied for a national interest waiver which is basically saying in the national interest of America, if we bring this methodology to that country, we'll be able to train law enforcement agencies to improve on how they conduct interviews but also employ people over there, give them jobs. And hopefully, I can imagine what it would be like to be in prison for one day for something that you didn't actually, a crime you didn't actually commit. Never mind 20 or 30 years. So that's sort of the, I suppose the moral ground of why we're going but also the opportunity from a business perspective is there's nobody else providing that training over there. We are the first and it's leading to the likes of some of the agencies we've mentioned before wanting training. So that's the rationale the reason behind going.

Nadia: Your journey fascinates me because from complete despair situation when you couldn't even afford the apartment like the one I mention

Jonathan: Yeah.

Nadia: Coming to, basically going through a few years of constant putting it okay I don’t have a job, I will create a job myself. And then from job and just being self-employed, you start thinking about being more than self-employed. Being in business which means working with people, leveraging their skill and training them. You coming now to the point in your business development when you're going to. Can I use words strook? It's across the entire legal system, business system as well in America.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Nadia: That's fascinating.

Jonathan: Well it's certainly a journey and it wasn't by design. But

Nadia: You just fell into it, did you?

Jonathan: Well I think, again, I believe things happen for a reason. So whether it's moving from the UK to New Zealand where I met my wife moving to Australia as well to now moving to the states it it's a journey and I think things happen for a reason. But the interesting thing is that I make a lot. When I, when we train people this is my passion and whereas I enjoy training people and seeing the development and how they progress. Or giving them some things that will actually improve what they do and how they do it. We have some, there’s an amazing feedback from an FBI special agent who, again this is a first training he had practically. And it's a bit like if we're talking football in Australia or my background was in soccer. If you look at the training that I had when I was a professional playing soccer and turning up on a match day, trying to be much fit, what you see in a business sense or in a government sense people aren't actually trained practically to be able to do the job. It's expected that they could communicate so they can actually interview people. And it's probably the crossover to businesses as well as in the private sector is that we're training people practical skills. Now I'm older. I'm going to play golf so I’m playing Matt Bolton who's down at Rosebud. Maybe 50 dollars a time to video me and give me coaching to how to hit a golf ball that doesn't move and it's the hardest thing in the world. But if I didn’t do that I wouldn't improve and it's exactly the same training that we deliver people. It's actually giving them the practical exposure of match practice to them to put that into practice in the real world. It's probably how I've approached my business as well. I'll approach when I set up the company I personally very much as I would do an investigation within the police. And is something that I think I've learnt that has worked well for me over a decade now is that it's an old age of we call it an investment mindset that we train people but again it's about assuming nothing, believing nothing, and checking everything. So if you’re thinking about your target market, how you set up your company, how you speak to people. It's having that mindset that's suited me well when I'm not making assumptions about the people I need to speak to, what I need to do, how I need to do my business plans, marketing, things like that. It's crossing everything dying every eye and it's I like a quote when we're training in my training courses and it's a golfing quote but I like it because it's a sporting quote and Gary Player said something to the effect he held the ball out of a bunker and there's a spectator called him looking so and so when he just turned round to the spectator and went “you know what, the more I practice, the luckier I become”. Anybody I think outside of whether it's sporting context, work context, anything in life, that's come around not by look. Yeah things happen for a reason but it's hard work. You get out of things what you put into it. So certainly whether it's something I saw probably early in my life or my sporting career where I probably found alcohol and women when I got to about the teenager. I didn't apply myself and what I should have done in terms of the talent that I had. Now I am, the rewards come in out of the hard work which was quite interesting when you realize that probably working harder now as a business owner than I ever did as a detective, even though I might be working 20 hour a day, 18 hour a day every other day, I'm working harder now at a business than I am because you don't switch off.

Nadia: Take me back to your detective time. Basically, I want to build up a bit of an avatar or profile of a person who is a detective. What it's like to be a UK cop? Just let us feel it.

Jonathan: If I'm going back to when I was 20 years of age, I finished my sporting career, went to Newcastle University or Polytechnic that turned into university. And I was studying sports so my passion was sport. And I was starting to think well what am I going to do for a career? I don't want to be stuck behind a desk. I certainly don't want a boring job. What are the job options I could look at which you're going to be exciting? So at that time I used to like all the cop shows and detective shows. The ironic thing was at the time one of my favorite shows were Miami Vice. I’ve seen Don Johnson with his stubble, and his Ferrari and his Armani suits and thinking yeah that's just going to be fantastic, that's going to be the life for me. And then I realized very quickly when I started in Salford in Manchester as a detective there, I didn't get a Ferrari. I got to hold an Astra that was a diesel and I wore a uniform.

Nadia: Could be worse. Could be bike. Not even motor.

Jonathan: Not even motor. I mean I think that's one of the things that's kind of missing. And again I sound old and I say this girl I used to hear people say this. I started off for two years walking the beat, bobby on the beat. That's how I got to meet people, speak to people, get to know people from every different walk of life. And that's your community policing and now you don't see that because the pressure on police officers in this day and age is all about going from one job to the next. Not enough staff and you don't have that ability to do that. So that's I mean it was sexy with the vision to join the police. It certainly didn't turn out that way when you joined it. But what I did enjoy was the people I work with and you can't be if you know that you have done a very good job in a court of law seen you know you've got the right person they'd been convicted of a crime. It's not about feeling at the end of the day when you know that you've contributed towards that to stop that person doing anything bad to other people.

Nadia: I want to bring a bit more experience for listeners. Can you just put yourself in the most horrific moment of your life when you were a cop? And when you felt extremely vulnerable, hopeless, yet you have to do something?

Jonathan: Well I'll put this in context. It's actually not what you may think of because I have been shot at.

Nadia: How do you know what I think of?

Jonathan: Well you are my accountant.

Nadia: Oh, I'm sorry!

Jonathan: We have met before, we have talked before. But my most horrific experience is I have been in some hairy situations in Manchester in the UK where I've been attacked with people with knives, I've been shot at. But the most horrific experience was actually when I was.

Nadia: Where is your wound? Have you got a scar?

Jonathan: No, well I used to actually.

Nadia: How disappointing.

Jonathan: It may used to be probably all of this. I'm putting it in my mouth for those who can't see us is that probably your most valuable commodity is how you speak to people not how big or strong you are. So as you can probably tell that I'm older now so I've got gray hair wrinkles. But when I was younger, I wasn't a bad looking guy. So you used to.

Nadia: Oh aren’t you? So what do you want me to say?

Jonathan: Well this is lining up the story because the most horrific experience and I don't know what would you call an unserious party over here?

Terrence: A what?

Jonathan: And I'm so so when all the ladies get together and actually have sort of a sex party.

Terrence: Oh.

Nadia: Ladies.

Terrence: I've got no idea.

Jonathan: Well in the UK they have Ann Summers issue. It’s a business owner that started off from nothing that’s one of the big.

Nadia: Tell us some more, it’s a business idea. Someone might pick it up.

Jonathan: Well it's a bit like where you can go into buying lingerie, sex aids. She set up a business and it basically just snowballed.

Nadia: We've got hands party it’s just girls before they get married. They have this.

Jonathan: I know.

Terrence: I think there’s something similar to that. I don't really know what it’s called.

Nadia: I’m so not into the industry but please tell me more. At least I can feel.

Jonathan: Well I’ll tell you more because it'll probably create the picture. Ladies have these parties around the UK and they have the agent invites all their friends to a party and they try to sell all of this lingerie and sex aids, all these sexy things. I was on duty in uniform as a young officer and essentially I was sent to an address of what I was told over the radio was a report of a burglary. So I turned up to this address, as you can imagine, in full uniform as a younger looking guy. And this woman opened the door.

Nadia: I can tell where it’s going.

Jonathan: And there was about 50 women that were all intoxicated, all drunk at a sex party and they thought I was a stripper.

Nadia: That's what I thought.

Jonathan: So they were trying to drag me into this address to rip off my clothes. Now I was trying to actually explain. No, I am a police officer. I am not the stripper. I've come to take a report of a burglary.

Nadia: But you’re in sane. Why did you complain? What’s wrong with you?

Jonathan: Well I actually, it was probably the most monitored in an hour so. Allegedly. I say allegedly. That was the most harrowing experience I ever had as a police officer. It wasn't what you would think. It was turning up to an address.

Nadia: I wouldn't have any idea about that kind of experience.

Jonathan: Well I'm sure you’ve been to one of those parties potentially in your time.

Terrence: Allegedly.

Jonathan: Allegedly. Yes, allegedly.

Nadia: Maybe as a cleaner but not as a girl.

Jonathan: Well. Tell me more about that.

Nadia: I’m extremely shy person. My experience is all about. I got married too early. That’s my problem.

Terrence: I guess what was harrowing about the experience is his destiny.

Jonathan: Well you’re trying to actually explain to a group of ladies that have obviously drunk a lot and thinking that you are the turn, you are the stripper when actually you are a real cop. You’re on duty and no I’ve come up to take a report.

Terrence: You’re about to be arrested.

Jonathan: But then all the jokes come out because in those days you did have a truncheon. So you had a wooden truncheon. So you can imagine all the jokes in the end that came out when you turned up to this house. So yeah that was my most horrific experience. It still traumatizes me to this day.

Nadia: Oh common, common. I think

Jonathan: Or should I say allegedly I quite enjoyed it when I'm older.

Nadia: So who fired the gun at you?

Jonathan: That was a guy. Actually it was on Christmas Day.

Nadia: So it wasn't the same party?

Jonathan: No it wasn’t at the same party. This is a completely different party. So this was a guy in a high rise apartment, intoxicated with with drink and drugs and suicidal. And when we turned up in the address, he was locked behind the door threatening to throw himself out of the window. You were whether to protect his life than anybody else's life so I was quite hurrying because he suddenly produced a rifle out of the well you have letter envelope, sort of postboxes, so he just pushed this part of this rifle and started to be fired at us. There was two police officers at the time so yeah there's some that you wouldn't want to wish on anybody to experience.

Nadia: Uhm it's become quite serious. And what I want to know from these things so you realize Jonathan is that you do have a unique set of skills which probably you can, some think you can do better than anybody else. And that is a big gift because a lot of people see their work every day not as exciting as yours obviously but they just think well hang on a second I'm pretty good at it. I just want to go into business for myself. When did you realize that your set of skills would create you something later on you can create the business? When did you realize it could be a base for something more serious than just being an employee?

Jonathan: I thought about it. I just didn't have and I see it now with people I know as friends or associates or people thinking the same things. And like I said it wasn't by design. I was forced into a position where the motivator was I have a mortgage to pay and I have food to put on the table. And that led me, probably before that I didn't have the confidence to do it. And I speak to a lot of people. Realistically if you have a family, you have a mortgage, you have bills to pay the security of a job is what keeps people in the job. But I kind of was forced into the position and now when I do speak to people I know Lance is coming and your conference.

Nadia: Yes! And he's going to be in this studio.

Jonathan: And he's going to be in the studio as well. We were having a coffee few years ago and he was setting up his company and a few of the people that I know with similar backgrounds to a really sort of you have that self-doubt. And the analogy is really what's the worst thing going to happen. The worst thing that happens is that the business isn't going to take off but at least you've tried and that's the biggest leap of faith when I'm speaking to people, even not with similar backgrounds to myself is, the confidence to take that risk to set up a confidant. And again I'm glad I did and I was forced into the position because when I'm a lot older, hopefully and I'm seeing my family grow up there, I can look back and go well I actually did. I actually set up a company. It was fairly successful. And it's not about the money for me. My wife will tell me differently because she's a client of yours as well who just set up her own company. I'm doing it because I actually, I suppose if anybody wants to watch the 15-minute Ted Talk, Simon Sinek says it’s not what you do, it's why you do it. And people buy into why you do something so I think that's why we're getting the runs on the board certainly with America and other countries because we're training things in the right way. That's the reason behind interviewing is trying to find certainly in law enforcement, is trying to establish the truth. It's not about getting confessions from people. It's about finding out what actually happened and convicting the right people if they've committed crimes.

Terrence: I think there's actually. This interview that's been really dense with a lot here that I'd love to unpack and I don't think we ever got enough time to do that.

Nadia: Oh we will just keep him here until after we're finished.

Jonathan: Thank you. Yeah yeah. So these are putting it.

Nadia: Because he’s going to US. We can’t miss this opportunity.

Terrence: But one thing I wonder is that from what you've learnt out of that experience of probably being forced into a position where you where you just had to do something. What advice would you give to somebody who's just thinking about it? Maybe they're not, maybe they don't have as much motivation as you did and they’re not forced into that position but they probably, they're in a position where they could do something or maybe they should do something. What advice can you give someone like that?

Jonathan: Well what was what was great in terms of, and I'm thinking back to New Zealand but also even now, I'm learning every day. And the relationships you have with people whether it be your friends, that would be my accountant who sat next to me, business adviser is as you speak to people who have either been through what you're thinking about doing and constantly get advice. At the end of the day ultimately you've got to make the decision about what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. And again it's a bit like, I’ll make the sporting analogy. I'm paying somebody I'm speaking to train me to how to play golf. When I set up the company in New Zealand, there was, and again you'll probably be able to help me on this locally. There was a government funded scheme where you could get training and you could have a business mentor. So I engaged them immediately, thought well why wouldn't you have a mentor or somebody you could speak to, who had not met you before, and I could talk to them about my ideas, my approaches as a sounding board. I mean obviously now I'm doing that with Nadia and her team and people I work with who have got some positions within the company and we'll speak about our approach is to whether it's a certain country, an organization whether it's government public or whether it's private, and we'll talk through and plan our approaches. So the advice I'd give is exactly that – speak to people. Speak to people who've been through whether it's somebody who is a business coach, whether it is an accounting firm, whether it is a friend that has been free certainly doesn't have to be the same organization. What's interesting is that I've met a lot of people now since setting up the company who do something completely irrelevant to what we do as a company. But we still drive the same steps of setting up a company. How do you do that. Getting advice around tax, about marketing, about how to structure your business, how you go about meeting potential clients, how you promote what you do.

Terrence: Cause your process is very relevant. Right? The process is similar and part of actually one thing that we do is we look at what works in one industry may not be utilized in another industry at all. So you can kind of transfer that directly over into other industry and have some instant success.

Jonathan: And let me, let me give you a really funny story. When I first set up the company in New Zealand, I thought let's keep it simple. I'm a great believer in keeping things simple. And I'll use a football quote where a manager won easy game complicated by people. And I hate to do that because I'm a Manchester United fan and that was a Liverpool manager who they’re in European Cup this weekend so I'm going to talk about that anymore. I like that quote because people overcomplicate things. I see that when we're trying to train people they put barriers in their way that don't exist. And if you keep things simple, that's going to resonate with a lot of people about their approach to business or the story I was going to give I called the company interview skills. When I first set up, let's keep it really simple. Everybody contacted me going for job interviews. And I was like no that's not what we do. We don't train people going for job interviews or training. As sure we can train that, and we could train people doing interviews.

Nadia: That would be another company. We have to set up for that. Do as a company we have to set up for that. Different income stream.

Jonathan: What actually happened for the first probably six months of setting up the company was because I'm a qualified trainer, I thought okay well I'm aware of all the different types of job interviews that are conducted whether it’s a behavioral interview or whether it's in form of conversation where you could apply PEACE, the framework so going back to your point exactly. Well do you plan or prepare for an interview? Yes you do. Do you have an engagement or an explain phase when you meet that person who is your interviewing? You elevate the pitch or usually the question that's asked is tell me about yourself. Can you plan and rehearse that? Of course, you can. If you know what the job description is for that role, can you prepare every possible question that could be asked? Can you prepare answers for it? Yes, you can. So for the first six months of setting up a company, I was doing something completely irrelevant to what I thought about. It was what my business was doing but needs most, I need money even for six months. And I was doing one on one coaching sessions with people going for the jobs and thankfully, a high percentage people we trained and got the jobs. But really, probably a lot of it was going back to what we talked about, it was just confidence. Yeah we gave them a platform or structure to plan for this interview but you can't beat somebody giving you a bit of confidence. And that's the good thing about, probably your business or Nadia’s business or even mine is that when you’re practically training somebody or coaching them, it’s giving them that confidence to probably do what they had you probably thought they were going to do but to reinforce it or actually giving that path had that they actually follow it.

Terrence: And even if where they end up is not where they started out or what they thought or what they thought was gonna look like, I think yeah some people get the paralysis by analysis. I think, as one of Nadia's favorite sayings. Just because they get too caught up in, it's got to be perfect or this is how it has to look when the reality is he's just got to start somewhere. You came back to that PEACE framework.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Terrence: And I kind of I'd like to get into that a little bit more if that’s okay. And really kind of unpack it a little bit. And I'm interested in probably two questions. What else does that PEACE framework apply to really well in terms of, aside from just interviewing or interrogations? And then as a side question to that, are there any situations where it doesn't work or doesn't apply?

Jonathan: I think the good thing about it and Nadia was asking me before. Well it's a framework. It was called the PEACE model, it was introduced in the 90s in the UK. And a home office commission involving psychologists or academics, lawyers, police chiefs got their heads together and came up with this framework. I think the nice thing about it is that you've heard probably the phrase one size fits all. Now underneath that framework you've got cognitive interviewing, enhanced cognitive interviewing, free recall and conversation management. Now you got four different models of interviewing. They all follow the sequence of planning and preparation for job evaluation. And really those models are designed to, when you're interacting with somebody whether they're going to be cooperative or uncooperative. So you could use, they're not exclusive. You could use all of those models in one interview of anybody or you could just use one of them. Cognitive interview is based on social dynamics, how we communicate, how the memory works because in its origins you are interviewing somebody about a past event or if they've witnessed a crime or they're a victim to a crime. You're trying to activate their memory of it to get information about what happened, how it happened, who was involved, why it happened. Whereas more of conversation management is it's really come into its fold with the people who train within the private sector. So whether it's insurance companies, banks where time is a premium, it's certainly not interrogation. Interrogation’s confession-based approach. Investigative interviewing, well I want to gather information and it's got to be quality and quantity of information. So when you see, an interesting development of how things just don't stay still, nothing is perfect. Like how the company looked 10 years ago and what the website looked like to what it looks like now, it's completely, the Americans explaining this catch phrase about or this “chalk and cheese” – completely different ends of the spectrum of what it looked like when it started out and it's still developing as we go. But the application, and again you don't know what you don't know. I didn't know until I started being asked in companies like insurance companies, banks. Everybody gathers information. So if you think about you as a business, your most important people are your own staff. And then after that it's knowing what the customer wants and finding out information for them so you can deliver what they actually need. If you don't do that effectively, yeah your business isn't going to succeed because you don't understand your own team as well as not understanding what your customer wants. And everybody is different. Every single individual is different. So it's quite, I suppose an English expression uncanny from where I'm originally from Newcastle, North of England is that the parallels Tom, something that was a technique devised for the police to interview people can be applied to lots of other disciplines or lots of different businesses and different contexts because we all communicate. It's just how well do we do that, how well do we ask questions, how well do we take notes, how well do we gather information.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: And if you can develop techniques or develop the framework of how you do that, you get better quality quantity of information that's going to lead you to make better decisions.

Terrence: Yeah yeah.

Jonathan: If you don't get good information or you're interrupting people or you're asking, if we were on a training course so be saying you're asking me multiple questions all the time. So two questions just serves as one.

Terrence: Yes.

Jonathan: And then if you're thinking about, well understanding the psychology of how memory works, once we start giving people that insight into, in terms of training, then it just has you'll have somebody. Like last week the FBI agent go and that works in my investigations but it also works within my family life, of how I interview my kids now. And also.

Terrence: Or interrogate them.

Jonathan: Not interrogate them, it’s just how I might phrase a question. You understand the psychology behind what is an open question.

Nadia: I’m passionate in caving teenagers and them going out in the evening. Do you want to know what they’re up to?

Terrence: Anyone who has kids who’s listening to this wants to know.

Jonathan: Okay.

Nadia: How long? Give it to us.

Jonathan: Well I'll ask you, you ask me what you think is an open question.

Nadia: It's a question which you can't say yes or no. It's question which forces you to elaborate when you're answering.

Terrence: I was trying to think of the actual question. So I was thinking

Nadia: If you were to go out last night what would you rather do and not to do?

Jonathan: Well that would be what we class as a false choice question.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: Because it would be a what. And this is how, I suppose, ain’t we get when we're training people like.

Nadia: Okay. So how I should have asked this question?

Jonathan: Well when you think about it, again social dynamics this is what most people think, what I'd say as five WH are open questions. But if analyze them, a what question that’s something that potentially give you a limited response about potential action.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: If you ask a who question, that's going to give you a name.

Terrence: Yes!

Jonathan: If you ask a where question, that's going to give you a location.

Terrence: Yes!

Jonathan: Yeah? And if you ask a why, you're looking at a rationale. Or something that was going through their mind. But if there's too many why questions it's like your kid who is I taught as to I'm expecting a few years time she'll be asking why why why all the time I'll just ask your mom. And just like that. And then if you look at how, that's action. But if you think about that five WH analogy and which is well, is that's our social communication, that's how we actually ask questions. But they’re not actually open questions. They they're looking for a specific answer with condition to answer it. Again I'm not saying that people can't elaborate from that. If you're asking it like a did, can, was, is are. That's a prefix you're going to get a yes or no. And this is, again, sounds really basic. But if you are having a conversation of what I've learnt from my world where you do want a yes or no within a business conversation, if you're looking at the right question at the right place at the right time, I know the five WH can give me a specific answer whereas those closed questions are going to give me yes or no. Well I might be asking if it's towards the end of a conversation or yesterday without name of the client about how are we going to proceed with some training. I want to. There's no bones about I want a yes or no. So I know where this is going. But the most elaborate questions that are not often asked, you asked one before, would be tell me, explain, describe, or even show me. But not many people actually ask them because they’re not in our social communication normally. You can imagine going home at the end of the day and me asking my wife tell me all about your day. She probably swear at me.

Nadia: Don't say that. I just ask you to describe one little moment in your day that she felt like pulling you out.

Jonathan: If you want an elaborate response.

Nadia: Well you don't.

Jonathan: So you're asking the right question at the right time to get what you're looking for. So if you are actually asking, again it's only delivery. If I was wanting a complete, elaborate approach to somebody, their business, I'd ask a more open-ended question. Same to a witness or a victim or suspect in my old world. If I'm looking for an elaborate response what's called in the trade a recall of information, I'm going to ask a more open-ended question. So many people I say let me explain and describe.

Nadia: If I think Terence stole something, and it would be may startle anything. How would we interrogate, interview him?

Jonathan: Stop saying the word interrogate. We don’t do interrogation.

Nadia: I’m sorry but I really want to, I’m Russian. I have accountancy background, what do you want me to do? So let’s interview Terence. Can you give me example if you suspect he’s stolen something.

Jonathan: Well must’ve be stolen if I didn't know Terence before the day and again if I wanted to know about his company cause I know he does coaching, I’ll just ask an open-ended question now tell me everything about your company.

Terrence: Yeah. That is true.

Jonathan: And again this is what people don't realize what we, within cognitive interviewing, it's called contradicting statement. And this is how we can transfer, something what is designed around interviewing a witness or a victim that may have witnessed something a year, ten years ago. And we're saying look, take your time, no rush, think back. Think back to that time and place and as much detail, don't leave anything out, tell me everything. And then I'm handing over the ownership to that person. But with those instructions in front the open-ended question, what science will tell us, because they’ve research this, is I'm going to get more recall of information from that type of question rather than saying what happened. If you transfer that into a business sense, so this might be you having a conversation with your client or wanting to know about what they do. If I'm wanting more of a recall of information I'm going to ask a more open question am I'm going to prefix it with some instructions. So when you piece it together and it's nicely delivered “I'm really interested in your company. In a much detail, tell me everything about it.”. I'm going to know that scientifically from my background, generally, I'm going to get more information from that. And then get it and it's called. Oh you’re talking about questioning typologies. So in an interview sense, again if you start off wide and then narrow down, your five WH you're going to give you specific answers. So I might say well “Who is your manager?”. I know that I'm only looking for a person's name. “What what's their role?”. Well I'm looking at what their role is. You’re responsible for whatever it might be. I’m actually thinking before I'm asking questions cause I know exactly what the response is I'm looking for.

Nadia: But on the other hand, you can provoke with this open questions some vague and looping type of scenario when person will be walking about and not delivering you any word I would say.

Jonathan: Well like I say it's the right question in the right place at the right time. If you want an elaborate response, you'd ask is more open-ended questions. If you want a specific answer, you're going to ask the five WH. If you want a yes or a no, you're looking at those close questions. So if you look at the people listening to this, it's called a questioning tool belt or Hull psychologist Canadian psychologist questioning funnel. A funnel’s wide at the top and narrows down. So you're looking at those open-ended questions to begin with narrowing down to five WH and then close questions. Becky Milne, professor at Portsmouth University kind of a tool belt analogy. So you're looking at your tool belt of questions and again it's trying to what we do with our training which would transfer into this world is going well.

If you know they’re the only questions you need to ask, you don't need to write out a question again in your life. You can ask an open-ended question when you want an elaborate response, specific when you want a name or a location or an action. And if you want yes or no, you're asking a close question. So you can start a conversation with a close question if you wanted to.

Terrence: And I think from what you're saying to me, this applies very much in a business sense. And one of the things that I often say is if you want to sell something to somebody, go and ask them what it is that they want, find them the solution and ask them if they like you to help them with that. It’s the easiest path to assail, right? Pretty simple.

Jonathan: It is. And if you think about, when I found out that I was good individually or the people that work on my team which I used the analogy of I surround myself with people that 10 times better than I am. Because I want them like the Steve Jobs quote “I want them to tell me what I should be doing. I shouldn't be telling them what to do.”. So most of the team are still specialists within the field and I use the correct people to do the trainings whether it's public or private. And I want them telling me what to do. The basic stuff is the bread and butter of what you're saying in terms of just how you're asking a question or interacting with somebody. And that was the eye-opening for me from leaving an institution where you are institutionalized in that thinking well oh I'm never good for is investigating crime to actually learn the skills I possess a great because these people in the private sector or business don't ever get this training. And again if you've got somebody who's co-operative that wants to speak to you for finding a solution for them. And again what I found with our approach is certainly people buy, not what you do but why you do it. People, because of that personal relationship they have with you about what's driving your business, that's what people buy into. It's a bit like. Hopefully you should interview my wife because she's. Really our experience. I'm sidetracking here. But this is why we're married as well in terms of why I've had such support, great support over 10 years but also she started an online marketplace from her experience of being a mom. Because she came here for an offer of a job with MasterCard. Headhunted and that's why we came to Melbourne. And we found out in the day we were travelling she was pregnant. And she only lasted that job a couple of months and then with previous issues of trying to get pregnant, miscarriages, Aila came six weeks prematurely and she was in hospital at Mercy Hospital for two months before Aila came. So the first sort of seven months of coming to Australia and living in Melbourne was quite horrific in terms of experience and certainly my heart goes out to anybody that has gone through that or had similar experiences. But that's what led her to look at what she's doing now. Because as a parent or as parents, we didn't have any family around us any friends at that time and what she was seeing from the need for services, I would say Dr. Google. Everything would go into Dr. Google and we're trying to find services so whether it was to help us get Aila to sleep or problems with breastfeeding or when you look at well we need a cake, she's come up with a marketplace that provides all those services in one occasion. But the reason why she's doing is that she she's quite touched with some of the businesses she's seen here that are non-profit making but giving back to kids or charity. So she set up a company and again it's a shame in a way that we're leaving to move to States, she's going to continue but she's all the people that are coming on board for her market place are all companies across the peninsula that buy into the reason, well actually yeah you could promote our services and people can book through your market place but we know a percentage of that business goes back to charity in kids particularly so whether it's in Australia or overseas. When you look at the causation of putting yourself in somebody else's shoes and seeing a kid dies literally every other minute because they just don't have clean water. And if you look at yourself that's sort of the reason why she's getting so many traction with what she's doing similar to my business in terms of doing wrong. A lot of people want to do the right things they're just not train to do them.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: So it's interesting because she set up that business and a lot of our conversations over a cup of tea or even a glass of wine are talking about business. Which is, as most people think pretty boring. We talk about other things as well. Don’t get me wrong. It’s usually about Peery Nappy's and isle or. But you do things the way you want to do.

Nadia: It’s only for a period of time you have this conversation. So cherish these because kids do tend to grow up.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Nadia: And that's what I just tell you enjoy it as a mom of four. Question for you I have. If you were to set up it all over again now and knowing that the Australians can be very difficult to deal with, you have come this place.

Jonathan: Oh I’m a Pom so.

Nadia: You have to be whinge a bit. What your biggest whinge would be about Australia as a way business is done here?

Jonathan: I don't have any whinges to be honest. And again, I don't. You make mistakes and everybody makes mistakes. Nobody's perfect. I suppose going back to what we just talked about, follow what you're passion is. I don't feel even though it's saying it's quite sad you talk about work but when you have your own business and it's your passion, the quote “you never work a day in your life if you're actually doing what you enjoy doing”. So I enjoy what I do. So I started to enjoy what she does rather than working for a big corporation because she's following what her passion is. And again anybody that follows the passion, you can know because you'll never work a day in your life. If you're doing something you don't enjoy doing it only you can change it. You can speak to all the people in the world – accountants, coaches, you've got to make that change yourself. Nobody else will do it. And the worst analogy I can make, and I again it’s going back to my teenage years, is the worst that can happen somebody can say no. Once you get over that hurdle, it's not really a hurdle because I mean literally when I was going back to be a teenager the worst a girl could say to me if I wanted to ask them out on a date is no.

Terrence: But there's a huge fear of rejection.

Jonathan: It's the fear of the unknown, the rejection or it's not going to work. It's a bit even me playing golf the other day and going oh crap I know if I hit this right, it was going to go under water so I'm already thinking that way.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: Instead of thinking well I'm going to smash this right down the middle. There's not going to be a problem. So I wish I had the same mindset I have here in my business to my golf game. The negative thoughts crack in. I don't really have negative thoughts or regrets about anything I've done because if you have regrets, you linger on them. Don’t get me wrong with these things. You make mistakes for a reason. And when you see all of those sporting quotes whether it's Michael Jordan or whoever “it’s from your failures that you learn”. It's not, no nothing is perfect.

Nadia: There is a famous one now going on and it's about you never learn from a place of comfort. If you would not be hungry your talent wouldn't be hungry you wouldn't be in the position you are now because that's what our Russian poets said that they need to be hungry.

Jonathan: And you surround yourself with, again using sports analogy why are all or even individuals successful in what they do. They surround themselves with a good team. So whether that's first and foremost is your family who support you. If your family doesn't support you or your parents doesn’t support you it is difficult. And then if you've got people that work with you share the same vision, that's going to be just fuel as well to achieve what you have in your mind. But you've just got to do it. If you don't do it. I mean I know I was forced into the position I was but I'm glad I was because I wouldn't be here now or wouldn't be going towards America. The Australian company is still going to operate and we've got an Australian team here so that we'll continue delivering training to our clients here while, if you ask me this 10/11 years ago when I was in Manchester that this is what I'd be doing or even having this interview now with you, I would laugh because that wouldn't even be on my radar.

Nadia: Instead you laughing during interview, that’s fine.

Jonathan: Well that's okay. Well hopefully some people who do actually listen to this are going to get something from it rather than.

Terrence: Going to be entertained as well as educated.

Nadia: There's a very fallen attitude that hopefully people will listen to. They will listen to us, they have to listen to us because you are giving them valuable tips. Simple things like balance from year to day. The questions I am being and my past I was interviewing people intuitively. I didn't have this theory behind. However, I have been trained and I would be and then I was a bit you'd think.

Jonathan: Yeah that's similar to cognitive interviewing, people that have been trained who have been on any of our courses goes very similar. And again if you think about anybody, a bit like today in a way, this is positive reinforcement where you see interviews on the TV they're not the star of the show. The good interviewers never noticed or if you think about in other good interviews even interviewing celebrity somebody like Michael Parkinson, was he ever noticed in a show? He might if you're managing somebody like Billy Connolly or people like that who are so extroverted, comedians you just asking them one simple short question and giving them the stage for five or 10 minutes they only know that you've got to manage your time. But he was never noticed that's why people liked him. The stars of the show wasn't him, were the people who were coming on. And if you see that with interviewers on the news, the interviewers unnoticed a lot because they just ask most simple short questions and shut up and let people talk.

Nadia: That's about ego. Not to put your ego ahead of the agenda.

Jonathan: You'll see and everybody listening to this will say that better ones are the ones because the people get frustrated when they see them on telly because they think they're the star of the show not the person they're interviewing.

Terrence: That's a great point.

Nadia: And if I just flip it across and develop it in the business sense that this is about people they go to business they do need to have clients and if client does not start your show you do not listen to the client and you're too busy talking to add the client then you probably.

Jonathan: Well. The interesting thing is, not overly religious. This is why we've got two ears and one mouth. I mean I talk now far more than I ever did in my previous life because the best interviews only listened. And again if you think about business, I don't talk anything like this when I'm with a client. I just listen know it might be a very simple question, I just listen to them. What I'm trying to do then is evaluate what they're telling to me to go back to your point and offer them a solution.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: Because they’re telling me exactly what they want. If I'm interrupting them even the traditional show, I mean it happens. People within seven seconds will hear something they desperately want to ask a question on interrupt somebody. Yeah. A lot of times you just shut up and just listen to people.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: And the client is going to give you exactly what you're probably looking for.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: And again, it's making them feel special and they’r the star of the show. That's the analogy of transferring what I did to what we do now successfully. My challenges is doing less of probably the training which I enjoy and doing more of the probably selling and running a business which I don't enjoy so much. and I have less patience for the nice thing is that I go home without any agenda. I tell people what I see and I can walk away at the end of the day. Probably a few years ago that wasn't the case Suzuko like. Yeah we can do that. I don't really want to do that. We can train you.

Terrence: I got less progression of business really and that's that. Is that where you need to end up where you want to be.

Nadia: They also say you work on your brand initially and then your brand works on you. So how much of your brand now working for you?

Jonathan: Well it is and I think that's important in terms of. I used to work with some guys who thought, the crown jewels was all within the material, the training. And I was trying to say from a business perspective and just learning and speaking to the people who I spoke to whether it be consultants or associates. Well the biggest thing is the brand because if people don't know who you are, well it's pointless. If you're talking about McDonald's, Coca-Cola, the big brands, you immediately, without even thinking about it, that's where you associate what their services or what they provided the product. So that's what we spent a lot of time money and effort on is, Forensic Interview Solutions or FIS with the trademarks, the branding around it. And it's quite interesting that we're kind of getting that traction now in terms of associating what we offer peace interviewing with the brand and they go hand in glove. But it's still nice to be brought back to my roots, when New Zealand where it's not the company. Just go speak to Jonathan because everybody knows each other because it's so small. It was a great platform foundation to start off with because people associate the training to me as an individual. Now after 10 years, it's the company or certainly in the States or the countries around the world, they will find us because we’re so niche in what we do which is frustrating to my wife because we work hard Jonathan just get all these direct inquiries and turn into a business and I keep saying Look the challenge for me is trying to be from moving from being reactive to being proactive to say look you can imagine if I could free up more of my time to be a bit more proactive, we could develop into it rather than being reactive.

Nadia: So you're basically having a whinge about that your brand works so well that you don't need to be proactive anymore. You don't have opportunities. You’re so reactive to all the queries.

Terrence: It comes back to what you said before which is the harder I work to work the luckier I get.

Jonathan: You can. I mean people say word of mouth. But because it is so niche what we provide, so if within even the circles now within America of just training the week FBI agents or police departments, they have looked for, they've spoken or they've looked for Fryda. There's nobody else in the market so that's the advantage we have such a niche that's what I think the brand is. I could have diluted it and branched off into lots of other things in terms of services but what I stuck to is exactly what we say on the team which we provide investigations of you training and that's what we do. Keep it simple.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: I mean essentially that was a learning curve from what we’re talking about 20 minutes ago when I called it interview skills, that was too generic.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: I just stopped to aggressively exactly what we provide and people looking for will find us anywhere in the world on page 1 of Google now and off because it's not that we're making cakes or biscuits, there's a million people doing that. That's probably the fortunate position we found ourselves in is that we provide a service that's very niche. And again it's then when you realise that it's how do you distinguish it from your competitors or people that provide the same service. So what's really interesting in America is that we're coming into the market saying we produce or we're providing ethical, transparent, scientific training that's practically based. And our competitors are training interrogation, confession-based approaches reading people's body language and that's complete nonsense it's great TV if you watch The Mentalist and lie to me but they've based their whole methodology of interviewing people on reading body language which science will tell us is not defined. And you've got a 50 percent sort of success rate of detecting somebody lying from body language. There's no Pinocchio nose effect. That's why when we come into the market there is a lot where it's reinforced with what's good about the product that we provide or PEACE is that it sells itself. I don't need to sell it that much as a business owner or what going to be ironic is that the people have in the Americas and you bring PEACE to America and I was like well I hope so. After this current stage. But essentially it sells itself because you've got 30 years of academic research behind it, you've got every law enforcement agency in the Commonwealth utilizing it. It's a national standard here in Australia, New Zealand, UK. Canadians have just adopted it. It's not a hard sell. So I've landed on my feet in a way because it's more difficult if I had to sell a widget and everybody else or the company sell a widget you then have to distinguish what's different between your service to another company and that's why I'd go back to is you as an individual. You're also selling yourself and why you do what you do rather than what you do.

Nadia: Jonathan, people fascinated with body language and you just completely just shut this idea down. I can’t stop laughing about one of the Australian shows, I won’t name it, but they were basically interviewing Schapelle Corby. Obviously it was some technology. She was then detained. And then their body language specialist they interpret her answers and their conclusion was she's completely innocent. She came out. She never had anything she never touches drug in your life. That's body language specialist interpreter. You're telling me that's 50 percent chance of solving them.
But I think it's obviously was pregnant with a boy a girl which is just really. So tell me are people stealing now using body language interpretation.

Jonathan: They are because it's something sexy and entertaining. People think they can read people. Don't get me wrong though. I'm not saying dismiss your spider senses when they're tingling. But certainly we're training people from verbal responses because for example, if I cross my arms here now, what does that mean?

Nadia: Arrogant. Cold. Hiding something put on a bit of mic. Anything.

Jonathan: Well it could. It could be anything. I could just like to like folding my arms because that's comfortable.

Terrence: Correct.

Jonathan: If I look to the left or the right, what does it mean?

Nadia: You are interested on what is there on the left.

Jonathan: And again in the world a smaller place if I don’t actually look at you, that could be out of respect.

Nadia: Or you just might be intimidated by me.

Jonathan: So if I go back to me probably talked about 30/40 minutes ABC. Now I'm assuming from what I'm seeing what I'm interpreting. If I actually ask them a question how can I validate it when I give I have asked a question if you're going back to my world or any world people or investigators, police officers their train pretty much to get a verbal response because if you give me a verbal response, what can I do with a verbal response? I can check it. So if you give me an answer I can physically go and check what has been said. In a business sense, it’s exactly the same. If you provide me with information I can go away and check it. If I'm just looking at somebody's body language and if I don't know them, and again if you don't have any what would say in the sort of training a baseline of somebody’s normal behavior, you can't make a comparison to how they're behaving with you now. Because if you think about anybody in any interview context, most people in job interviews are nervous. So if you being interviewed you're going to be nervous so you might display nervousness. Of you sweating, crossing your arms doesn't mean you're lying. There's no Pinocchio nose effect. There are indicators but it's not definitive. But that's what's amazing about why we're going to America is that for 50 years the basis of their whole training, both within sort of the law enforcement community as well as private organizations, is based on what's called the Reid Technique which is, well they call it behavioral interview, reading somebody's body language who you suspect to be guilty. If they confirm the signs of deception you then interview them on a nine-step process to get a confession. So what tells you everything about the gold standard American technique is that the first ever, it was devised by embowered and a guy called John Reid who was a polygraph reader. So it's funny when you see Robert DeNiro in the Meet the Fockers and they've got the polygraph. But the first ever interview with this technique turned out to be a false confession. Now I should tell you everything for half a century is that their whole approach to interviewing is flawed.

Nadia: And again they have shows when people are asking me whether they had an affair or not and they have a lie detector on them.

Jonathan: It's an indicator. But if you look at again scientific research on it, it's never validated. It's never used in a court of law anywhere in the world. And if you go to body language, that is never used in any court anywhere in the world of an expert or an expert witness going in. I'm going, I am going to give you my expert testimony on body language because it will just get dismissed out of hand.

Nadia: But however, it could still have a place in your way of interviewing people. What do you still pick at those cues to ask different type of questions or adjust?

Jonathan: Ohh well you'd ask the question so if you saw something visually to validate, then you ask a question.

Terrence: Yeah.

Nadia: So this becomes more like a set of cue rather than a conclusive factor.

Jonathan: You can imagine if you could think about your wheels for a minute. You just employed somebody from England because you made a joke about it the other day if you're going to teach it to English or to speak English. I was like well probably some of the worst cases are people speaking English in the UK

Nadia: I think it just didn’t happen in this instance he’s learning swearwords that's just terrible.

Jonathan: But if you think about what are you going to do when you're interviewing D.C. sort of visually you think he's nervous, he's sweating, is a bit sort of anxious. What do you say to somebody?

Nadia: Relax.

Jonathan: Well potentially you pick up on that and say OK are you a drink or what you did this morning can I get you coffee. You're going to engage somebody or start asking why are you nervous there is no need to be nervous this is going to be an informal chat. You're starting to talk to somebody or ask a question to actually determine are you nervous? Well it's a close question, yes or no.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: If you get yes, well okay then you're reading visually that you verbally then confirm.

Terrence: Yes, makes a lot of sense.

Jonathan: That’s common sense.

Nadia: Well common sense is not that common, we do all know.

Jonathan: Well as we all know some of the smartest people you know also, when common sense comes to mind, some of the dumbest people as well. Well this is what I suppose is frustrating when you see you know because I'm still married to my old career in a way where the same people with degrees or direct entry can go into a law enforcement or police career which some of the things you can't train doesn't mean you need a degree to have common sense or speak to people.

Terrence: Well Nadia we probably should release Jonathan at some time.

Jonathan: It is not intentional.

Nadia: Well I guess there is 51 questions left. But its fine. We just probably we’ll stop. How can we find you if we need you? Yes. Your exact location please.

Jonathan: Exact location? Which office? Because we've got offices in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, America, Hong Kong.

Terrence: So what’ve been telling us is that it’s a wrong question.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Nadia: Yeah exactly that’s the point. My other question is if I was very interested in the way of we should be asking questions and what type of questions and or all this. Have you ever put together a comprehensive trivial as a distribution of good interview?

Jonathan: Yeah. I mean we have video footage.

Nadia: I wouldn’t want specific terms which would be really not

Jonathan: If any people listening to this do. I mean they'll find us if they search for forensic interview solutions, it’s FIS. Forward slash international dot com. People and again we don't spam people to death with flyers bit like your company I would say that allegedly is that they can get some of the articles that we've talked about today whether it's about questioning, how the memory works, they can access free information on the website. Download so there are other like I said research articles, articles about questioning about memory, detecting deception. Some of the templates or the tools which are part of PEACE training so things like interview plans and notetaking methods are all in there. So it's interesting that some of the basic skills like we've talked about asking questions or even taking notes people during a meeting and a telephone conversation with the business aren't very good at taking notes effectively so when they do look at the notes a day or so later it looks like hieroglyphics. Those kind of things are available on the website free of charge. And again if people are interested in it by all means log on they'll be able to get those downloads. FIS dash international.

Terrence: We'll put a link in the notes for the podcast. That's been really good. I've taken plenty of notes myself. Too many I’ve got summarizing this.

Jonathan: Yeah. I mean this is an interesting thing of what people don't do as opposed to. Could you summarize how long we've been going? Over an hour?

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: Your short-term memory is not going to be able to summarize everything we've covered.

Terrence: Not correct.

Jonathan: And again it's a bit like bite-sized chunks but like those biscuits.

Terrence: Yeah.

Jonathan: There has more sections. Just summarize that you’ve heard today. Is there going to assist you to be able to do but go ahead.

Terrence: Said I thought that the first thing I was specialism was also occurs that there was an interesting comment that you make. And that we're all investigators, auditors and information gatherers that there was one thing I picked up. On PEACE framework for interviewing, very interesting. I didn't note down all of the particulars but I'm sure that we'll find that somewhere on your website or whatever you have. Cognitive interviewing and false confessions kind of being able to get the right maybe outcomes from interviewing, obtaining confessions versus extracting the truth. Big difference in the US.

Jonathan: Big difference from interrogations because people still say they're being interrogated by their wives or partners.

Terrence: A lot of what we spoke about the investigative mindset.

Jonathan: Yep!

Terrence: That was pretty cool.

Nadia: Okay Assume not assume. This is one of the things.

Jonathan: ABC - assume nothing, believe nothing, check everything. But it's funny the principles behind that and this is what you'll get when you summarize.

Terrence: Yes.

Jonathan: People will naturally add in more detail.

Terrence: Yes.

Jonathan: Or clarify you.

Terrence: Haven't quite done it. Five WH questions, very helpful for me. Actually I kind of never thought about it that way so that was really helpful for me. Let me go, right question right place right time.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Terrence: Fantastic. Oh look we've got to finish on the Pinocchio nose effect.

Nadia: That’s classic. Absolutely classic.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Terrence: That was beautiful. So on that note, thanks a lot for taking time to kind of discuss these things. It was, it kind of illuminated a lot of things for me that I hadn’t really taught in the way that you kind of spoken about. So thanks for coming down and sharing with us and we'd love to speak with you again at some stage. And wish you well.

Nadia: When you in US and so big that don’t want to speak to us but we will insist.

Jonathan: Well no, that's not a problem. Thanks a lot for having me. Hopefully somebody listening to this gets some value out of it.

Terrence: Yeah.

Nadia: Oh they will.

Terrence: Well thank you for patience.

All: Thank you.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Unfair Advantage Project. For more curated resources, visit us at unfairadvantageproject.com.