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Kate Fennessy from Paperboat digital explains how building a simple yet attractive brand can transform the way your customers interact with your Business

Show Notes:
Kate introduces herself and what she does. [00:45]
With the existence of social media, how does personal communication stand? [03:22]
How does Kate see branding? [06:29]
How profile picture makes or breaks branding? [09:13]
Kate sheds light on the importance of copy or also known as posts. [14:46]
What is quality assurance and how it’s helpful with the copy? [17:04]
Why does font matters? [18:51]
How is hashtag useful? [21:04]
Why is having great content into your platforms the same as having that connection with people? [33:10]
Have you been coolonised? [37:55]
Kate shares something about content optimisation. [41:53]
What should you know about images and stock imagery? [48:04]

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Episode 4: The social media check-in Part 1 with Kate Fennessysy

Narrator: Welcome to the Unfair Advantage Project – unique perspectives, practical insights, and unexpected discoveries directly focus on giving you the unfair advantage. Introducing your hosts Nadia Hughes and Terence Toh.

Terence: Welcome to the Unfair Advantage Project. I am Terence and we’ve got my co-host here Nadia. And we’ve got a special guest today, Kate Fennessy from Paperboat Digital. And Kate’s really special guest because she was actually, initially going to be one of the co-hosts on the program. So, welcome Kate. How are you?

Kate: Thank you. Good.

Nadia: And I think Kate doesn’t mind being our social director.

Kate: Sure.

Nadia: That’s what she offered us on BITE and I’m going to hold on to that.

Kate: Consultant. Social consultant, not director.

Terence: Consultant, not director.

Nadia: Digital footprint.

Kate: That’s true.

Nadia: Yeah.

Kate: Yes.

Terence: So apparently this is a logic question. But who is Kate Fennessey? How can we introduce you to our listeners?

Kate: It is a huge question. Look, I am a Frankston resident, mother. I am a person who works from home. I made that journey a year ago. This is really daggy but I’m a lifelong learner. Someone who likes to, needs to keep growing and learning. And I hope I’m a contributor to the community. I try to, I like making people feel good. I like helping people to achieve that something I get a kick out of. So, I hope that’s a good answer to you. It’s a very modest answer to who am I.

Nadia: Okay it’s a very modest answer. I connect to it because you probably also have, you just listed all the roles you play in your life. And it it’s good that you are just so strong, feeling stronger about your roles. But also for me, you really like the creative person in anyone’s life. And the moment somebody works with you, you give this inspiration instantly and I remember this when we had this fun session of unfair advantage. It will stay with me probably forever Kate. I had first time of one hour…

Kate: We did.

Nadia. when we’re just throwing ideas at each other and we had fun at the same time.

Kate: Yeah, we did.

Nadia: It was just great. That’s what Kate Fennessy is really. For me, that’s how.

Kate: Thank you. Yeah, creative is true.

Nadia: Very creative Feny which walks into your life and makes everything nicer, brighter, better.

Kate: That’s so nice.

Nadia: I know and I’m Russian. Thanks to that.

Kate: That’s lovely. Thank you.

Nadia: I do have a very huge respect for the way you conduct yourself in this world.

Kate: Thanks, that’s so lovely. Oh my God!

Terence: So how would you describe what you do without using your job title?

Kate: Wow. Why did we come out of that question? It’s really hard.

Nadia: You came up with that. So just pay the price.

Kate: So, what I’d do without using the word of my title is I help people express themselves and their business in a way that connects well with other people. Or I utilize the current systems that we have in the world that are so accessible for people to thrive with their business.

Nadia: So, when you’re talking about systems and everything for a person, like myself, I’m completely unsavvy. Is there such word unsavvy in digital presence and even anything to do with social media? I’m very awkward in fact with social media. My daughter had to go and fix a few things on my Facebook, on my LinkedIn. And she constantly keeps telling me, all four of them, post on you saying this is what you’re talking about. Isn’t that what you?

Kate: I am referring to that. And the reason I keep it nice and vague is because those platforms are going to come and go, and they’re going to change, and their features are going to change. But what doesn’t change is businesses talking to people or people talking to people. What doesn’t change is the desire to communicate and express who you are and show who you are and find the right people. So, yeah. Can I say the phrase social media is social media now but it may not be in five years maybe called something else. Yeah. So, I’m in the digital space at the moment. I’m heavily focused on social media but I’m aware that that may not always be the case. But what will always be the case is communication. And that’s what I started as a writer.

Nadia: For me is channels will change.

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: But the way we communicate with each other also will change. So, what will stay constant is our desire to reach out.

Kate: Correct.

Nadia: And what you specialize in adapting these ways of communication…

Kate: Definitely.

Nadia: using platforms. So, you’re specializing on those platforms. You understand the rules of the game. I haven’t met anybody who would explain me in such an accessible language how to do certain things. And one of your presentations, that’s how I met your first time, was fantastic. That’s where you took us through. Because marketers tend to get really excited. Their presentation starts rolling clean go at you and you just before you know like, it was said we were speaking Swahili to you.

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: So, you do not speak Swahili?

Kate: No. And the key thing is I don’t consider myself a marketer. I’m a writer and that’s the truth. I actually started…

Nadia: Please accept my…
Kate: I mean I am in marketing but I’m saying in my core, who I am, I’m not a marketer. I’m a writer. And I started of this whole journey writing. That’s how I got into advertising it was through writing. So, that for me probably does make me a tiny bit different to some other marketers who are using the buzz words. For me it always comes down to who’s our audience and how we connect.

Nadia: You seems to be a person substance over form. Yet you can play this form as well.

Kate: Yeah. And look, I’ve got to and I do and I’ve got to understand the platforms. Otherwise, I’m not very useful. But I guess I have an awareness that they will come and go and change. But those core things like.

Terence: Cool. So, what we’d like to do is do a little bit of a series on. Actually, you ladies have named the series.

Nadia: That was Kate’s idea so…

Kate: We’re calling it the Social Check-in because you check-in when you go on Facebook and you check-in on Instagram. So, we’re going to check-in. There’s this idea of a health check as well. Like we’re all often mostly all on social in some way or another but it’s good to sometimes reflect how well am I doing on social. So, we’re going to check-in.

Terence: Okay. So, what are we going to talk about today?

Kate: So, today I think the broad thing of our series, as you suggested Terence, is we’re going to talk about how to build your social engagement or your presence or your footprint for the podiatrist. So, we’re going to look at a few top areas that business owners really need to understand and implement to do well on social. So, today’s focus is branding.

Terence: Okay.

Kate: Branding on social.

Terence: Cool.

Nadia: And before we go branding, what branding stands for you? Again.

Kate. Sure. It’s pretty broad. Branding to me is how we present ourselves to the world as a business, as a human. Branding to me, I’m actually quite passionate about branding even though I’m not a graphic designer and I’m not. I guess I’ve learned a lot by being exposed in the advertising world. Branding is important. And particularly in our world today where visual communication to me is so important. But yeah, branding covers everything – how you speak, what you talk about, what you don’t talk about, how you engage with people, like how you connect with your customers. So, it’s attitude, it’s look and feel down to color, tone. It’s everything. But yeah in a general sense, it’s how you present yourself out there.

Nadia: I see a lot of people who want to wear certain brand but what I don’t see is consistency of these brand. Was this corporate culture they have. My clients for example, they want to call themselves a certain buzz word or something. But it doesn’t carry on consistently through other layers of their business. Branding for me, it’s also has to have this consistency. Was it visual but it’s also behavioral consistency. And this is where I see a lot of apodosis if I may say.

Kate: Sure.

Nadia: But it’s cute. Again, it’s something people catch you for that, they hunt you down. Maybe there is some charm in breaking those consistencies. However, you have to create it first.

Kate: You can evolve. I think your branding can evolve over time, it’s not going to be static. But if you look at the bigger companies out there like Nike and Donaldson and Coca-Cola, they all have very clear ideas of who they are as a brand and they don’t tend to veer off that. I’m sure they evolve. Yeah. So, the art of branding, and again I’m not a branding expert, but the art of branding can be pretty serious in the big end of town. But when it comes down to the little guys and down to the very individual, if your personal brand is important to your business, there’s a lot you can do just by being a bit conscious of your branding.

Nadia: When I’m talking about brands, a lot of our listeners would be small to medium business.

Kate: Yes.

Nadia: And what top tips would you give them all about the social presence in their social hub like such as Facebook, you think?
Cause there is some general etiquette there.

Kate: Definitely.

Nadia: And would you just brush it off because what I see is a lot of interesting things obviously. And I think I’m guilty as charged breaching this, as it gets all and breaking some perception.

Kate: Yeah. Look, first I say there’s no obviously rulebook. This is my, these are my opinions. But for me, there’s some simple sort of things that you can get right from the start. So, first with branding thinking about social media specifically I’m a big fan of having your profile picture be your logo or your face, one or the other. So, for someone like you Terence, your logo could decide your profile picture probably. Could be your face but because you’ve got a logo, it’s your logo. And that should never change. So, that sounds like so simple and it should be the same on each platform.

Nadia: But my face changes all the time. Then what will I do with my shoulder if I pick my face?

Kate: The photo shouldn’t change. If it changes, change every couple of years or something but not, like a lot of people get the simple basics wrong I see all the time. Wrong in my opinion where they don’t have the same profile picture across your accounts. So, what you want from a user point of view you want them to visit your website, to visit you on Instagram, to visit you on Facebook or Pinterest or wherever and see consistency. That’s branding. You want them to see a clear, and I see quite big brands often they’ll put a favourite picture as a profile on Instagram but then logos over on Facebook. But something else will greet you on the website. It’s not good. So that’s a simple tip.

Nadia: So, what you’re telling me it has to be recognizable across all platforms?

Kate: Make it easy for the user. So, make it easy for the user to say oh this Strategic Corp.

Nadia: That’s a very good tip and that’s few things probably I’ll go back and fix because I am not consistent. I’ve got all sorts of pictures out there.

Kate: Yeah. And you’ve got, you’re a person who’s invested, oh you both have, which is great, in recent lovely imagery by a professional photographer. Use it. So, again it’s either logo or your face and don’t really change it.

Nadia: I’m conflicted. Michelle Pratt, that’s the person who took the pictures. She took quite a few of them and I can’t pick the favorite. What do I do?

Kate: Pick the favorite?

Nadia: Eni mini this is many.

Terence: I just want to go back to kind of what is brand for any cause we’re talking about how branding should really be consistent.

Kate: Yes.

Terence: And there’s a, I think there’s a famous quote and I’m pretty sure its Jeff Bezos. Hopefully I’m quoting the right person. Branding is what people say about you when you’re not in the room.

Kate: Sounds about right.

Terence: Which is which is pretty cool. And I kind of think of branding as how you make someone feel.

Kate: Yeah. I’m happy with that definition, definitely.

Terence: Does that make sense?

Kate: Definitely.

Terence: So, it’s kind of you’re projecting yourself out there or you’re projecting your company brand or your personal brand or whatever that brand is. And it’s how that person feels about it. So, if we say, if we talk about some of the big brands where there are feelings associated with those brands.

Kate: Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah. And like I said, branding is a total science. And there are experts out there who can charge big money to do seemingly simple things. But yeah, branding definitely is about the impression you leave out. Totally agree with that. And I’m just a bit finicky about this stuff for some reason. I think because I see so many missteps obsidized out there. So, and like you said they’re all quite simple to rectify once you understand it. And because digital, social has so many moving parts that’s why that first step in that first example of just get your profile picture consistent, is one simple thing you can do to unite all your platforms. And again, these are just my feelings. Some people might disagree. But that’s to me a nice step of consistency in sort of getting your house in order. Similarly, with cover image. Now if you’re a person or a business with YouTube, Facebook you’ve got an opportunity for a cover image. Pinterest would create its own based on your opinions. Instagram doesn’t have that feature LinkedIn now does. So, you’ve got three opportunities in sort of five common platforms to have a cover image. So again, I would suggest consistency. Put your best photo. Pick it. Pick one that represents lifestyle. In the case of Terence, we looked at profile pic that’s your logo but a cover image of you. I think we went with the one that was surfing. Well they’ve changed it. But yeah, it shows you as the person and sort of actually speaks to a lot of what your brand what your business is about which is helping people achieve a good lifestyle through work.

Nadia: So, I suppose my picture has to be with Abacus.

Kate: Definitely. Some props.

Terence: I like the Abacus idea.

Kate: Well some of the photos Michelle took for you so in time when you use platforms with a cover image, find a nice one that communicates more. So, profile pic is pretty much just your face whereas a cover image, in a service-based business, idea that would be you talking to someone, laughing. Or…

Nadia: I do laugh a lot.

Kate: Yes. Well you’re funny. And like, so, something that can just give a hint and throw some hints of who you are and what it means. And again, I’d suggest consistency and not only that but the use of these are they should be able to visit those different platforms and your website and see ah this is the same brand I’m encountering. Because you’ve got to recognize that in today’s world, you may have clients and customers who only experience you on Facebook. Or they only experience you on your website or Twitter or Instagram or their preferred platform. So, you need to make sure that they’re getting the same quality of experience as if they were on any platform. Anywhere they collide with you should have a similar feel. Don’t have to be exactly the same but it should be similar. And then we go, if you want me to keep going with this interview to teach you how.

Terence: Yeah. Let’s have a look a bit deeper and see what people really do.

Kate: Yes. So that’s big picture. But then you go into things like copy. So, copy is words. This is advertising space. I think what’s copy? Copy is just words. Anywhere there’s words, that’s called copy. That’s what copywriters do. But your copy style, now when I’m talking about social media that’s posts essentially. So, the way you write is part of your brand. Some people will be very minimalist with their copy which means they will say very sparse sentences like.

Nadia: I think I’m very consistent the way I write because I make a lot of spelling mistakes and are recognizable.

Kate: I do cover that. I advise not to make spelling mistakes. But if you’ve got to style, some people write long form, some people, your style might be humorous, could be lighthearted, it could be very formal. I’ve got a client that won’t use exclamation marks. Sussex, they don’t like using exclamation marks. And their copy is really beautiful. It’s often quite minimalist. It’s very sort through. So, that they’re a great example of a client who really takes their copy seriously post by post. Cause one thing I’ll say about social that I still think a lot of people don’t get, is it’s a brick by brick you build the wall situation.

Nadia: We actually have it currently happening and I think he has already built quite a good fortress of those moods. It’s, Craig Harper, have a look at his whiteboard lessons. He’s building them every day. This, he creates a new blog and I subscribed on Instagram and I’m just falling. And sometimes I’m asking questions there, not that he cares, but it’s just a very interesting way of engaging him. And he’s probably really active because a few of my clients, absolutely accidentally I bumped into they actually follow him as well.

Kate: Okay, I will check out Craig Harper.

Nadia: Yes.

Terence: He’s been one of our guests, very interesting.

Kate: Who is he again? What’s he doing?

Terence: He was, well actually Nadia will tell you.

Nadia: Oh, he is designed a concept of personal training. Yes, he created the world around these and now it’s he’s inspirational speaker and collects a lot of people to listen to him. And he’s very straight down the line. He wouldn’t just go and you think he will tell you exactly how it is.

Kate: Yes. So, copy styles one thing and that’s something you can control and look at pretty quickly and easily. So, thinking about the sort of language you use, I would say it’s an important time to have a bit of QA, quality assurance if that sense?

Nadia: QA?

Kate: Use to call it QA.

Nadia: I say that because this is what we, every year probably, were expecting and they come and check your files, your professional…

Kate: Not that kind of QA. For a post, it just means no typos, get your punctuation and grammar looking nice. Now the reason is even if you are a person who sends texts with all sorts of garbled, some people do, my auntie is very good at that. As in if typos don’t bother you that’s fine but don’t do it on behalf of your business. So, if you’re a person, if you’re dyslexic or you’re a terrible speller, that’s fine. But get someone else to double check it for you and polish it. I love polishing words, editing it’s such fun. But, so…

Nadia: I need a polish girl. Full time.

Terence: Polish or Polish.

Kate: Either way.

Nadia: Just ease the word. She will be better than I am. In any case.

Kate: Yeah.

Terence: Well, Nadia actually gave me a testimonial, once. And misspelling probably one of the words.

Nadia: Why didn’t you fix it?

Terence: Hahaha! I fixed it.

Nadia: You should have told me. You didn’t tell me.

Terence: Hahaha! I just waited till Nadia tell you.

Nadia: Oh, your fool. That’s kind of friend you don’t need anymore.

Kate: I mean it’s kind of sweet he didn’t tell you. He’s protecting your feeling.

Nadia: Yeah. But not my…

Kate: Not unless he did it on purpose?

Terence: I don’t know why protect Nadia’s post?

Nadia: He didn’t protect mine. I’m pulling the post down. I called you on those personal matters. I’m done. I’m triggered, that’s it.

Kate: Okay. Do you ever trigger Kohana?

Terence: I don’t know. I’ve got a spot for the children. But I think…

Kate: I’ll stick with words for a minute and copy. So, copy to me, let’s move into the territory away from my post because on a platform you can’t choose font it’s just the font given by Facebook. But where you can choose font is in images. So, when you’re adding font to an image, when you’ve got a font for your logo, when you’ve got a font, any font choice on your website, and again this is all my background in advertising and all the other gorgeous wonderful people I worked with who was so good at this stuff, from copywriters to designers, I loved watching them work. Font choice is really important. It can say you’re modern, it can say you’re daggy. It can say your weird. Or it can say you’re classy. It can say you’re sassy.

Nadia: Okay, to be classy sassy, what font should I choose at the moment?

Kate: I’m not a font expert but I really like minimalist Sans Serif fonts which means that if you look at a T or an I, the T with a Sarif font will have the extra bits on it. Do you know what I mean? And the I will have extra bits on that as opposed to just an I like that and a T like that. I like minimalist.

Nadia: So, it’s a bit of a Barocco style of the font?

Kate: No. I’m saying go for minimalist.

Terence: So, San Serif is without? San Serif.

Nadia: Sorry, without.

Kate: So, Sans without, that. So, without the hangers.

Nadia: So, it’s a bit Aztic.

Kate: Minimalist. I like modern fonts. But again, fonts are a whole thing. Libby Davis, who I work with, is well creative like she’s a font expert. Graphic designers get font. I know what I like but I’m not an expert on it. So, some people you say font choice and their eyes light up because that’s what they’re born to do.

Nadia: Really?

Kate: Yeah.

Terence: So, get you graphic designer?

Kate: Graphic designers. To give you advice on font choice.

Terence: She’s you’re a part that fits in with the…

Kate: Yeah, with your brand. It should fit. So, generally and again I’m not an expert in this area, but generally on a website you’ll have a font for your main copy, a font for your headings and you might have one more sub font. Now that should be carried through on everything. That font choice that you make on your website should be carried through where possible. On images where you copy overlay on it or your business card or etc. So, it’s again looking at the whole picture and seeing little ways to be visually consistent in that sense. So, that’s just one other little thing but it all adds to the picture. Well talking about words, still, I will say hashtags. Now…

Nadia: That’s an interesting one. Hashtag.

Kate: Well hashtags, I always get the question what are they actually for. Just to cover that off, just briefly. Hashtags, yes, they’re important. I’ve got a few pet hates in this area. Where hashtags are really important? At two platforms – Instagram, Twitter. Because they perform particularly on Twitter, which I don’t really use much, they perform as a conversation marker. So, for example when the royal wedding was on, and I liked watching it, I went to Twitter. No, I don’t normally. I just quickly identified a tweet with the hashtag a royal wedding. I tapped on the hashtag royal wedding and I was just served up all the people tweeting and talking about the royal wedding. Because I wanted to quickly just say like what’s people saying about that dress?

Nadia: It’s like a key or into a club. And these people belong to this club will be recognized.

Kate: And it’s great…

Nadia: And elected straight the way instantly.

Kate: In a moment like an election, like a weather incident, like a dramatic incident, unfortunately, terrorism, anything big that’s happening in a moment. Twitter is a great place. You find the hashtag and you can immediately be up to date on what’s going on. If an earthquake happens, immediately there’ll be a hashtag someone will use and everyone will jump on it.

Nadia: I assume everybody hashtagging what they’re mulling at the moment, what’s happening them.

Kate: Yeah. Well exactly that’s right. World events, good and bad and ugly will be hashtagged. So, that’s where they’ve got to really function important usage. Then on a platform like Instagram, it’s a different thing but it’s still important because without hashtagging you just don’t get seen. Your content won’t get seen. So, we’re all, right now, in line Warrain and we’re on the Mornington Peninsula in our businesses, in our lives. So, I pretty much always use the morning to peninsula hashtag as Paperboat whenever I’m doing anything because I want to be seen in this community.

Nadia: So, on the opposite side. If I want to be seen in some other community, can I use hashtag?

Kate: Of course!

Nadia: Pretend to be part of the club when I’m not.

Kate: Sure. You could be like New York girls.

Nadia: Yeah.

Kate: And let’s pretend you’re in New York girl. It doesn’t matter.

Nadia: And they say what is that?

Kate: Well, it’s not going to sort of be earth-shattering just by one hashtag. But over time, you can certainly shape who your audience is by hashtags.

Nadia: So, you basically give us the key to any audience we would like to deal with. So, if Terence now has an international client, you can hashtag yourself away. Whatever country you’re in.

Kate: That’s right. You can find out what’s being use. And it does take time. There’s a real science of hashtags and again it seems really simple.

Nadia: So, where is the book, scientific book of hashtag?

Kate: I haven’t written it yet. But it’s always evolving so there’s no point having a book because it’s too, by the time you’ve published it, it would be out of date. Hashtags are changing in real time. They’re an organic thing. So, you’ve got to tune in. It’s not finding the rules, it’s tuning in. So, when you are into a certain area, like my friend Katie’s a blogger, she will know a lot of the hashtags to use in that world. Melbourne blogger, Mornington Peninsula blogger, blogger mum, whatever she’s using she’ll be sort of gradually building that knowledge base of those particular hashtags. And I’m using similar ones a lot of the time. And you guys, depending on your work, businesses need to start to tune in to what’s the hashtags being used that are relevant.

Nadia: What hashtag would you recommend for a podcast? People…

Kate: Well the word podcast obviously, and variants of it. And so, I’d start typing in podcast as a hashtag, see what else comes up. It might say podcasting, podcasting now, podcast is life. So, that’s great. And then the only other rule that I do apply, that I learnt a few years ago and I think still pretty relevant, is I try to only use hashtags that have between about ten thousand and about three million posts in them. If you use a hashtag like health, like love, it’s going to have 100 million posts.

Nadia: Too broad.

Kate: It’s too broad. So rather than health, you might use one like healthy living. Oh, that’s probably even too big. It might be healthy choices or healthy breakfast, something specific. So, that’s hashtags without going too deep in that direction. When I was actually wanting to say from a branding point of view, is get your hashtags right. Because if you put a bunch of really sort of irrelevant hashtags, you look a bit like, I don’t know, you are just certainly not switched on.

Terence: So as a business owner, how, I guess, is there a process that we can go through to choose or at least to understand which hashtags we should be using? And which ones we shouldn’t?

Nadia: That’s a great question.

Kate: Yes, look at your competitors. Yeah, there are. And again, it seems like such a small topic but there’s a lot to it. So, a good place to start is look to competitors. Some similar businesses to you in the similar area or the similar target area that you want. So, look at what your competitors are using first of all. You almost want to build a bit of a list. I feel like my list is in my head. But you might want to write it down. But build a list of about, say twenty or thirty base hashtags that you consistently use a combination of. So that’s one thing you can do. In terms of what hashtags not to use, there are hashtags that get banned from time to time for various reasons, usually inappropriate content. But sometimes they can seem innocent. Like I think there was one to do with curvy women. I can’t remember the hashtag. It got banned. So, if you were accidently using that and you just say you had a lingerie brand or something, you could be doing yourself damage without realizing it. There some weird ones, like in dogs of Instagram. Some odd ones are banned. So, do one day maybe check which hashtags are currently banned. They call it shadow banning. And sometimes you see people in positions like mine writing out a little blog post, hey check out the banned hashtags. They’ll change from time to time and usually you don’t need to overthink it. Just don’t use them. They’ll be banned for whatever reason. And then in terms of the rest, it’s just sort of, like I said, tune in to the ones that are relevant. And the other tip, will always use location. The other tip I have for hashtags, is as always use what is in the image. So, don’t just use the same hashtags over and over again because Instagram will think you are a robot. So, use ones that relate to what’s in the image. So, for me, if I took a selfie right now of us three, the kind of hashtags I would use would be hashtag Line Warrain, hashtag podcasting. Would be about social media content.

Nadia: So, we are taking selfies then.

Kate: Sure.

Nadia: Please do so.

Kate: Hashtag it as best as I can. And I would always use a combination of location, people in it. I could use your, I might say hashtag strategic or hashtag smart business. Like I could just use anything relevant to that picture. Hashtag Studio Life, hashtag recording live or whatever. So, you make it relevant. Does that all make sense? And the only other thing I’ll say, which is a pet hate of mine, and it touches on another topic which is avoiding automation at all costs. Sorry. People who get into a mindset of just, I want to automate. To me there’s danger in that because it gets, encourages laziness. But anyway, without going too deep into that, I will say use the appropriate amount of hashtags for the correct platform. Drives me nuts when I see, so what a lot of people do, which is fun, but also not. What a lot of people do is they automate their Instagram posts, a bit of Facebook. The reason I don’t like that is because it often carries with it twenty hashtags. Facebook doesn’t really need hashtags. Facebook, hashtags never really took off on Facebook. They are there. I do sometimes use them for clients. Or only at the most, use two or three. Just one line under the post.

Nadia: When I go on Facebook, if I click hashtags.

Kate: They do work. The functionality is there. So, if you do that same example of hashtags…

Nadia: But they don’t bring necessarily the traffic of hashtags everywhere.

Kate: No, they do. They perform the function, they’re just not utilized as much by the users. The functionality is there…

Nadia: Because what I see, I see increasing opposite. I see increasing volume, increasing usage of those hashtags on Facebook.

Kate: It’s from Instagram and that people are bringing their Instagram habit over to Facebook and it doesn’t translate. So, to me, this is so specific and almost ridiculous. But in terms of branding, don’t use twenty hashtags on Facebook. You look like you don’t know what you’re doing. That’s my opinion. So, it sounds harsh, it sounds over the top but these are little judgment calls. You’ve got to realize that, especially the younger people coming up in this world, gen, what are they? Digital generation. Gen Zs, Gen Ys. They’re making snap judgments all the time. Maybe not on something so specific. But if you have dodgy imagery or weird stuff, they’re making a little judgement on you as a business model.

Nadia: Spot on. Because I listen to comments my editors make and hashtags of forty-year old woman makes them cringe.

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: And this is predominantly. This is what, Facebook is dominated by those women whose mums that are in business and they are making a lot of hashtags. And you have, well actually emphasize a very important element.

Kate: It’s subliminal. It sends these subliminal messages that you might not be meaning to send but you might be sending a message. I’m a bit daggy. I don’t know what I’m doing on social. Now that’s not the message you want to send. If you can help it.

Nadia: Because young generations are so comfortable on social. It’s like…

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: I can swim and you can’t. That’s how I think they look at us.

Kate: Yeah. And then a young person might hear what I’m saying now, and think what are you talking about? They, maybe they don’t care if there’s multiple hashtags on Facebook but to me they’re just little tweaks. And some are more important, I think imageries probably. But more important, it’s the cumulative effect of all these choices you make. So, for me I’m very fastidious about getting these things right for my clients. Because I don’t want them to look…

Nadia: Stupid.

Kate: No! Or it’s sort of it can look like you’re not up to speed if that makes sense.

Terence: To me, the underlying message there is really be relevant to your audience but also be relevant to the platform.

Kate: Absolutely.

Terence: Because if you, I guess you can maybe think about it like what you wear everyday. You might wear something different to do a workout, to go to a business meeting.

Kate: It’s true. You wouldn’t turn up to the gym in a tuxedo.

Terence: Correct!

Kate: Or you could…
Terence: That would be interesting work out. But, so, really make sure that whatever you’re doing is relevant to the audience that you’re speaking to.

Kate: Correct. That’s right. And the automation topics almost a separate one because I have some feelings about the dangers of automation. Because everyone wants to automate. But it often leads to that issue where you’re actually doing the wrong thing on the wrong platform because you think you’re being efficient. So, that was hashtags and I know that’s a big topic. Every time I mention the word hashtags, I get that same question. So, I think it’s good we covered it off in terms of what they’re for…

Nadia: I think it also opens the room for you to make a separate workshop for hashtags.

Kate: Sure. I mean…

Nadia: Because women want to look cool on their platform.

Kate: Everyone. Yeah.

Nadia: And that’s just, please coolonise the…

Kate: Coolonise.

Nadia: the entire generation of mums. Coolonise. Yes, use it. Please do so.

Terence: This is a new, I think it’s a new word.

Kate: I think it’s a new word. New word for the day.

Nadia: It belongs to our podcast.

Kate: Coolonise.

Terence: So hang on. COO-LO-NISE. How do I spell that?

Nadia: Oh please. Come on. You’re asking a Russian.

Terence: That’s how we’re going to spell it. Hashtag coolonise.

Nadia: Did you spell SE?

Terence: SE yes.

Nadia: Exactly.

Kate: Cause were Australian.

Nadia: That’s good.

Kate: Let’s look. I’d be open to that. I think at the moment…

Nadia: You’re a coolanisator.

Kate: God, thank you so much. Yes. I’m working on a book actually with Libby who I mentioned before graphic designer and Katie who is a blogger and influencer.

Nadia: Oh, that’s going to be good.

Kate: It’s already, sounds very good.

Nadia: So, who’s the comedian in the book?

Kate: All of us. Katie’s probably the funniest. No, they’re all funny.

Nadia: You do need somebody with a great sense of humor to go.

Kate: Katie’s funny. They’re both funny. I think what I was saying we’re working on a workbook for people to get their head around all these aspects of social.

Nadia: When can I read it? Who is sign it for me? When it’s coming out?

Kate: Maybe September…

Nadia: I can’t wait. Why so slow?

Kate: Cause its only six…

Nadia: I want to be as cool as possible, as fast as possible. Thank you.

Kate: Okay.

Nadia: Just hurry up, would you girls?

Kate: Okay, we’re trying.

Terence: I think Jonathan told us to ask one question at a time.

Nadia: Sorry Jonathan.

Kate: So, we’ve talked about copy. We’ve talked about hashtags. And copy that appears visually and copy that’s post in a post. So, I think that’s a lot of copy. Consistency. Yes. Alright. So, that’s all fine. But then, just going back one step again for content before I talk about images. Content is essentially what you talk about right. So as a brand, no matter whether it’s on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, doesn’t matter at the platform. You’ve got content happening. So, content is what you decide to talk about. Content is also what you decide not to talk about. Alright? So, certain brands will never weigh in on political topics. They’ll avoid talk of religion. That’s true for so many things. So, what you do and don’t talk about is your first decision whether you realize it or not you already making that decision. And so again, when we talk about brand, that’s a huge part of it. What you decide to talk about and not talk about is your brand. So, this is one point I want to make. I hope I can express it adequately. But, one thing that I find generation of sort of thirty, forty, fifty, year olds who are not native to social, which includes me really, is that some of them get this and some of them don’t. A lot of people are stuck in a traditional marketing mindset. And I’ve had this issue with many clients. Some of them who in the end get frustrated and go off in another direction because they don’t sort of get it. But don’t try and apply traditional marketing techniques to social media. Now what I mean by that is, not every single social post needs to be sell, sell, sell. Here’s what I do – buy it. So, a lot of clients immediately have an unrealistic expectation of the arrow of social or of the impact immediately. They expect people flooding through the door, from every part. It doesn’t work that way. It’s a cumulative effect. So, if your content is to me, buy my things, that’s actually your first error. If that’s your content, you’re already looking out of touch.

Terence: Desperate.

Kate: You desperate, you’re not using social properly. Unfortunately, and I totally get it. That’s how businesses and marketers used to think. And that’s what you used to have to do. If you were doing a print ad, you were paying thousand dollars for you had to get the messaging right. But…

Nadia: My analogies, they’re awful. But it’s for me, like something couple without foreplay and you don’t even engage.

Kate: Correct.

Nadia: And you already pushing something to them. It’s just terrible.

Kate: Yes.

Nadia: I think they need to just create a for me, through content. You create an engagement first.

Kate: Yeah. You flirt. Socially. On that analogy, it’s all about flirting and connecting at that first level. The rest can happen behind the scenes.

Nadia: That’s right. Please leave it behind the scenes for us.

Kate: So, for me for example, if you look through my posts on Instagram or Facebook, I pretty much never talk about my own business in terms of did you know I do the following. I do sometimes, I will sometimes show a result on a story I might say oh my God I’ve got 10 out of 10 for this ad on Facebook or wow look at this. But I barely ever would do a post explaining and pushing my services. Just don’t do it.

Nadia: What do you best engaging post you’ve done so far from your own experience?

Kate: Usually, and this is true for me and all business, as usual its people. So, it’s the best engaging person in fact that there’s data to support they have human beings in them. So, their moments are. Actually, my best most engaging post by far as Paperboat was a selfie I took on the steps of the Clemens building when I had my last day at work a year ago. I didn’t plan it. It wasn’t a professional photo. It wasn’t even a particularly good photo. I just went ting and I have this kind of look on my face, mixed of fear, excitement and all that. And it went completely off on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook because of the story I told. I said this is my last day in a full-time job. I was a part time job. I’m about to step out into Paperboat. I posted it on certain platforms and in the end, I had to open a spreadsheet of inquiries based from that social. I had so many people saying oh my god can I talk to you? So, it’s a classic example. It was not a sales pitch but ended up generating a lot of sales inquiries.

Nadia: And I think if you would go and analyse this why, why it was successful, I think because you were genuine.

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: You just shared in emotion.

Kate: Yes.

Nadia: Real which was…

Kate: And I was a bit vulnerable too.

Nadia: You were vulnerable but genuinely vulnerable.

Kate: Yeah!

Nadia: You were not trying to ask for sympathy when you sick. You just caught yourself in the moment and this moment was so relatable.

Kate: Yeah, I shared it because I wanted to share it. Cause that comes back to my centre of writing and sharing. When you write, you got to share otherwise you’re just writing nothing.

Nadia: But it brings them to this little point for me is you. Sometimes the success on media comes so unexpectedly. There is so much sounds behind it. Yet the post which will perform the best would come totally breaking few rules. Like you took selfie. Selfie is, could be considered as not…

Kate: Not cool anymore. Yeah.

Nadia: Exactly.

Kate: Not, what’s the word? Coolonise.

Terence: You’re not coolonising yourself.

Kate: No, I wasn’t coolonising moment but it was a good moment. And you’re right and I often with my clients. I actually don’t post as much content for myself as I would like to because of time. But for my clients, you’re absolutely right. It’s often the unexpected posts that do well. Sometimes you think a certain post will really resonate and it doesn’t.

Nadia: Do you think it’s due to the things that we hear overwhelming amount of social presence of other people? They’re so alike. They’re so standardized now. If it’s a young girl who has to pout her lips, push her butt out and lift her chest.

Kate: Maybe. Yeah.

Nadia: If it’s a middle-aged woman, she would always have kids and have a cutesy face. So, I don’t know what is it.

Kate: Maybe.

Nadia: And suddenly we’re flooded with those standard images. A bit of luck. Fraternal twins every single one of them. And suddenly something genuinely pops up.

Kate: I think it’s the genuine. When I look back on my social career, so just. So, I worked in social media in advertising for six years before Paperboat. Three years Paperboat. There was a two-year overlap. Anyway, when I think back to the best post that we ever did from Paperboat and agency, one of the best posts I ever did was a video that got about fifty thousand views with no spend of this motocross cyclist, motocross rider who just was funny and he just had a really funny sense of humor and just went really well because he was funny. And we didn’t expect that. The other videos hadn’t gone as well. His video just went through the roof because he was so funny. A simple post for Pedders, I used to work for Pedders, was just one of those stores, one of the franchises just. There was a cold snap in Bendigo and it was just like snowing in Bendigo. We posted it immediately. That was his timing thing and it just went really well. Not record breaking but I remember that as a stand-up poster. And I remember thinking well that’s a good lesson to be in the moment. Cold snap in Bendigo at the front of the store. Everyone who felt called that day was like yes. I felt that cold snap. Other simple ones the leather doctor, I used this example a lot, they’re never anything unbelievably amazing scientific but it’s just a before and after of a dirty catch and a restored clean catch. They often go really well bathing themselves. And the other one was the Riv which is a pub in Seyfried that I work with. When we posted it, someone had done an old painting of the Riv in the 80s that went absolutely viral. Do you know why? Because people had memories of that pub. So, when they saw that photo, there was no humans in it so broke that rule. But everyone went Oh my God I remember even Johnny used to be there and this happened and the history all of a sudden went off.

Nadia: You hit the memory button.

Kate: Yes. So, all those different examples. The cold snap photo was just spontaneous. The selfie was pretty spontaneous. The leather before and after ones just I guess they motivate people to think oh gosh that’s.

Nadia: And also, it seems to be the lack of staging. And people are sick of staging.

Kate: Yep.

Nadia: Sick of pretends.

Terence: Manufactured authenticity.

Kate: Yes, when I posted that pub painting, I probably thought oh that’s just a normal post. I had no idea. But it wasn’t, and then what you got to do then is take that learning with you. So, then it made me go with that nostalgia is strong in that community. So, I’ve tried to wake that up again. Like asking people to send photos. It doesn’t often happen but. One thing we did do it on a continued theme for that, was I went in Wendy a while ago I took photos of some of the staff and asked them to tell me about working here. And those posts did really well too. Because it’s about the people. And in time, I learn with a client like the Riv. There’s a history there. It’s not just a pub, it’s a community centre.

Nadia: And again, that’s a walk emotion. The walk nostalgic.

Kate: That’s right. So, we’re sort of drifted down into content. And I’ll just say one more phrase that this is what it is. It’s content optimization. So, I was taught that, back in advertising from Ahmann who taught me sort of everything, the ability and that’s what a lot of people don’t do, is they don’t listen and watch their reactions to their content very well. So, you do see a lot of people on auto mode which is why I’m a bit anti-automation mindset. Because they think I’m just going to post every week. The meals we have at the pub. If they did that, they would miss those opportunities. And if we didn’t learn from that hotel post or those staff posts, then we’re not listening. So, the concept of content optimization is to witness how your content performs and then change your plans accordingly. If that makes sense. Yeah.

Terence: Yeah. So, I think just bringing it back to the branding sort of thing. One of the things, one of the messages or some of the messages that I’m getting through what you’re saying. Firstly, tell story.

Kate: Yes.

Terence: Connect with your audience. Engage your audience.

Kate: Yep.

Terence: Entertain your audience. And don’t forget, it just coming back to what we said earlier that it’s all about human to human interaction. And that was one of the big things that I kind of learnt. I went to Traffic Conversion Summit San Diego early of this year, as both of you know. And that was one of the big things that they spoke about. Forget B2B, forget B2C. It’s about your connecting with other humans. And so, act that way.

Kate: Absolutely.

Terence: And I think one that comes back to one of things that you said again, which is just trying to sell me your stuff constantly

Kate: Correct.

Terence: Tell me about you.

Kate: Yeah.

Terence: I want to know who you are.

Kate: Correct.

Terence: I want to know whether I can trust you. And whether I want to do business with you anyway. And I want to get to know the real, authentic, genuine you rather than seeing some manufactured version. And I can’t remember when, I think we’ve spoken about manufactured authenticity once before.

Nadia: It’s Craig Harper.

Terence: He’s left an impact on us.

Nadia: Simulated authenticity.

Terence: Uhh. Simulated, that’s what he said.

Nadia: It was a really good one.

Terence: I’m going to call it manufactured.

Well, very general. Whatever.

Terence: Hahaha. But, so rather than this manufactured version of what you think people want to see, let’s just be who we are and let people see that. And then they can choose.

Nadia: And I think it’s in our material world that acquiring things no longer gives us this satisfaction. Acquiring things for the right reason from the person I want to help. Suddenly what creates these in the selling process, it takes away this absolutely emotionless, transactional fact. And it creates a crucial relationship. And this is what more than sale is about. Helping people or engage in services of the people we would like to help and would like to elevate by using these services. And this is how I see when my friends come to use my services. The funny thing is they never ask for discount. That’s how I know their true friends because they do not ask for discounts. They want to to help me. They want to, and a lot of people I find in Australia trends in the same way. They’re happy, when especially you start a business. This was my most precious moment when I started the business. Of course, I had a few friends and I was thinking I have to do the favours and everything. They are the monthly, actually paid me more just to help me out to start this and I’m forever grateful.

Terence: Maybe you should introduce us to your friends.

Nadia: They’re my friends.

Terence: No, I mean.

Kate: Yeah, I mean.

Terence: That’s out of respect for what you do…

Kate: Exactly.

Terence: and how well you do it. And that’s…

Nadia: I hope it’s not out of pity but it’s was exactly…

Kate: No, you’re right. People want to connect with people. And more than ever these days in this Instagram era that we’re in because really that is the platform for the most part. That’s kind of where it’s all happening. People want to see who your business is and they want to form a long-term connection. And I do it myself as a consumer all the time. If I see a story of a shop down in Mornington, I’ll think I’m going to go down there and I’ll probably become a long-term customer. Because I’ve seen post after post and I started getting affection towards oh that creative woman doing those beautiful window displays. I love her and want to support her. So yeah, it’s more personal. Totally agree. So, I think back to branding. So, if we take a step of trying to pull all that together, that’s why the choice of what you talk about matters. And that’s why the tone matters and that’s why it all matters because you’re giving of an impression. If you get into that lazy set and forget mode, where you just want to. Still meet clients to this day who do it. They post five times a day. Oh, sorry five times a week. But it’s all. They’re not listening and they’re not noticing that no one’s responding. I’ve seen big brands do it. I mean it hasn’t changed since I’ve been in this business where people want to set and forget, they forget. It’s a two-way street. Old Media was a one-way street. This media is two-way so make the most of it. So, listen. So, when you do get a post that does well even if it doesn’t have to go viral. But viral just means it goes beyond your community size. So, if you’ve got five hundred followers and you get a post that reaches seven hundred people, that’s gone viral for you. It’s spread beyond your community. Take note of it. When it happens, ask yourself. What was it? Like the pub, the selfie, all those moments. Reflect and act on it. Don’t just ignore it. Because if you ignore it, you’re not listening to your audience. And you’re missing opportunities. So, I guess that wraps up content. And then back to a couple more just broader things. And again, these are finicky but I think they all matter. So, don’t leave an empty platform up. If you’ve stopped using Twitter two years ago, just delete the link from your website. Close it down. You don’t have to delete the account, maybe just put it on hold. I think, I don’t know with Twitter. I think with most accounts, you can sort of switch it off public mode before you totally delete it. But if you’re not using an account well or you’re not using it properly, just get off it. You’re better off doing one or two platforms well than having a poor excuse for content sitting there just looking weird. I mean again, it’s not going to change people’s opinion but it just all adds up. Just little things like not filling things out correctly. One thing I just do want to touch on, and this is about images and two words – stock imagery. Just go easy on the stock imagery. I do see clients still, big and small, who just rely a hundred percent on stock imagery or rely very heavily. Now I know for a service business it’s hard because you don’t, like for all of us. It’s hard to create content, we don’t have products. We’re not. Like the easy ones in the world of social tend to be health, beauty, fashions. It’s pretty easy to create content or harmless, that kind of thing. When you’re in service, I get it, it’s hard. And definitely use stock imagery but use modern, nice stock imagery. It’s so important because you’re sending a message. I am daggy, I am out of touch, I don’t have a brand. And in fact, when you rely a hundred percent on stock imagery, you may as well not have a brand. You don’t, you’re watering yourself down to nothing because you just look like anyone. So, this is an example, I’m not being disrespectful at all to Anzac Day. Obviously, it’s an important moment for Australia each year. However, like I look at all the poppies popping up in feeds. To me unless it’s relevant to your brand, don’t worry about it. If you’re the RSL, yes. It’s a big day for you. But if you’re everyone else, do you really need to put poppies on your feed? Does that really? Because in the end, everyone’s putting the same photo of the same poppies. Everyone looks the same.

Terence: So, they’re all stock images?

Kate: They’re all stock images and everyone’s using the same thing. So, you’re not differentiating. Different if you had a. Let’s use another event. If there’s something else where you had an event and your staff were all there, then take a photo and make it personal to you. Don’t just rely on this lazy automatic thinking of. Well it’s Christmas, I better use a stock image. I prefer to see a happy photo of you while you’re at staff party than a stock image of a Christmas tree saying Merry Christmas in daggy fonts.

Nadia: Yes.

Kate: You know what it means?

Terence: I could take a pretty good image of my Christmas tree. And with my wife who I love a lot. She spends a lot of time on the Christmas tree.

Kate: I’m like okay. I get very specific.

Terence: We’ve always got a serious Christmas tree.

Kate: Great. We’ll share it with us. Show us and tell us that story. Say exactly that. One of the awesome things about my wife is her attention to details. Yeah. I’m in her camp because I moved the ornaments for about two weeks just gradually I sit there and just move it. Then, I’m an ornament mover. But…

Nadia: Oh damn.

Kate: Yeah. I’m a Christmas tragic. I actually am. I love Christmas.

Nadia: I only like presents. And you know how people say it’s the giving person is the happiest receiver.

Kate: No, I’m not. I’m a giver actually…

Nadia: On a Christmas, I like my presents. I do give generously. But I also love to receive.

Kate: Yeah, me too. I love it all. So, anyway what I’m trying to say is these details matter. So, if you’re relying on stock imagery check out Unsplash. It’s a great, more modern image. Free image resource Unsplash. Try and pick ones that are a bit more modern. Just avoid the cliche and do not try and represent what you’re saying with the stock image.

Nadia: These images and with regional images, a lot of people take the images and then they go and filter it. At the end of the day be they this absolutely look like the dome faces of. I know in real life you say don’t look like it. And this is where it’s taking a bit too far, this filters. What’s happening in the world of filters?

Kate: Are you talking about photos of yourself with filters?

Nadia: Yes.

Kate: I don’t like a filtered obvious edited photo. I think we’re going to see this trend globally. Look at Meghan Markle with her very limited makeup on her wedding day, freckles showing proudly. I think, I’m like you prefer genuine. My selfie photo was totally. I didn’t filter anything or any do anything. And you just put it out there. So yeah for me. Look I guess makeup filters are a personal choice. I’m like you though I don’t like that whole fake world of Instagram of women looking so heavily made up and perfect because to me that’s not real life. But look I don’t know. I guess if you like will filters, filters can often give a hue to your image and sometimes it’s nice to use the same filtered through Instagram. It doesn’t change your face, it just changes the colour. Sort of warmth or coolness or whatever. But personally, I don’t use filters. Yeah.

Terence: Do you have any tips for a business owner who wants to take their own images?

Kate: Yep.

Terence: Maybe, how they could choose their own images.

Kate: Yeah.

Terence: How they can put together and maybe choose images. Again coming back to the branding sort of things, that reflect their brand.

Kate: Sure. I think image is a good one to finish on because it sort of ties it all up as well. I think two things: use, invest in a professional photographer to get at least a bit of a bank of imagery which you’ve both done. I need to do. In the case of someone like us, you can, a good time to get a professional photographer is when you’re doing a presentation, when you’re running a workshop, when you’re in a meeting. You’re all in local meeting groups. Ask the men, do you mind if I get photographs taken to me? Talking and connecting with everyone. So definitely, invest in professional imagery because again it’s sending a brand message. Quality imagery looks so much better. However, of course we’re going to use our phones and of course we’re going to collect images along the way. Just simple rules and again I’m not a photographer. Make sure the lights on your face, use natural lighting where you can, frame it properly. I think there’s a few good resources out there to just take good images on your phone. One thing people do that always bothers me just say they’re taking photos of people. There’s half the photos empty space, above heads. Just put their heads up the top third. There’s a simple rule of thirds being to take photos. Go closer. Are a lot of people take photos from too far away and half the photos just a roof or a floor. Make it, go in, show detail and that’s a thing. Like when I go to events for clients, I take photos of details, movement moments. I much prefer, like you Nadia, an unposed photo like take photos of people laughing, talking. So be a photo taker if your, particularly if your business has an event or a moment. Just take heaps of photos. You can, you don’t have to post them in one go. You can post it later. Yes. So, they’re are just the basic tips. Framing…

Nadia: I just think that photos, I hate myself personally those photos when we look all in the camera. I just think it should be banned. But if it’s…

Kate: Fairly extreme.

Nadia: Yeah, I know. I don’t do anything by heart. Because I love those moving images.

Kate: Natural ones, yeah.

Nadia: People engaged with each other. And the moment they look into camera, you know this is a completely artificial moment for everybody. Everybody stop whatever they are doing, stop thinking about what they were thinking. And suddenly produces this face, special face we’ve been practicing forever.

Kate: Yeah, but I would argue that the only danger of refusing to take a posed-photo is you may not end up with this many. And you may not capture people. Because at the end of the day, we all do it. We all do the whole like we all know how to pose. Like it’s pretty normal these days. So, in other words to me it’s not that much of an issue. But we all have a personal feelings Nadia and that yours. As long as it doesn’t stop you from taking enough photos is what I’m saying. Because you want to capture the moments and sometimes that’s just easiest ways to go. Come on everyone in.

Terence: What about in those moments, like you spoke about when your, when you quit your job?

Kate: Yeah.

Terence: And you’re probably scared.

Kate: Yeah. Definitely.

Terence: There was some fear there. There’s definitely and maybe slightly excited. There’s all those feeling. But you’ve managed to take a photo and you said that was pretty much your most engaged post.

Kate: Yeah.

Terence: So, how can our listeners try to do something similar for themselves?

Kate: It’s moments. So, know when a moment is significant for you. Because that was a moment for me and that won’t happen again. I mean, I actually blogged about it a year later. But know the moments in your business. So, that might be being aware that oh my God five years ago today I took the plunge and started this business. That’s a moment. Or a new staff member starting is a moment or a new product is a moment. An event is a moment. A moment could be realisation. I’ve just read a book that’s changed everything. So, moments. I think if you can capture a moment you’re feeling something. I was feeling a lot of feelings in that moment. Huge feelings that whole day. It was a massive moment.

Nadia: And it probably explains a little of this image because your face was life.

Kate: It really was. And people actually wrote it on LinkedIn. They said I can see in your face a mixture of the following. Like, because I couldn’t help it. So, I guess maybe that’s what it is. If you’re feeling lots of stuff, if you’re feeling excited, if you’re feeling like wow, capture. Ask someone to take a photo of you in the cafe where you’ve just written your new plan for something. Capture it. So, don’t be afraid, we’ve all got finds. I’m not afraid to ask strangers to take photos of me or take a selfie. But capture it.

Nadia: Just pretend you’re a tourist. It’s easy for me. I pretend a tourist everywhere.

Kate: When I took that selfie on the steps of that building, I thought oh my God I look like such an idiot because I thought business people would pass here. I just not going to. Here’s me taking selfie but I just did it because I knew I wanted to share that moment.

Nadia: Good on you.

Kate: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And like I said it’s not a great photo. I actually really liked it but that’s okay. So yeah, that’s my thoughts about brand. It all matters, little and big things, but it’s the cumulative effect. Think about it. Don’t see social as just as often people do. A little to do less than I do and I think I’m going to post today. It’s more powerful than that if you think about it. And tune in. It’s an active life thing, it’s two-way. So, give it a bit more thought because it can be quite powerful for businesses I guess I would say.

Nadia: Oh, it was absolutely interesting for me and every time I talk to you I learn so much about myself. What I do wrong as well. And if you want I can summarize my text and then Terence will finish up. He has absolutely strategic summary. What’s the doubt for me is absolutely it’s coolanise your hashtags.

Kate: Yes.

Nadia: Stop being these mumsie who is just thinking she is knowing what she’s doing and trying to be cool. Instead of trying to be cool, be cool. And learn to be cool. Second thing is how do I coolonise those hashtags. Well, look what competitors doing. Look at the location, look at people in it. Look at, basically, a lot of things which can create this traffic through hashtags.

Kate: Correct.

Nadia: Don’t just plonk this hashtag and think your cool. Put some thought into it. Check my hashtag. For sure banned. Apparently, there is a block list of…

Kate: Yeah. But only a few.

Nadia: hashtags existing. And do not, whatever you do, do not use curves in your hashtag. Don’t automate. Don’t just go in lazy plan cool hashtags, you just the bunch them up and keep carry them across because platform will think that you’re a robot.

Kate: Correct.

Nadia: That’s what I think. Interesting idea.

Kate: This is not Nadia. It’s a nice summary.

Nadia: I know, thank you. It’s a Smart Business solutions.

Terence: Nice plug, I like it.

Nadia: Another thing, be relevant to your audience. Be, when you start evolving into the imagery part of it, you were talking absolutely beautifully about the River.

Kate: The Riv?

Nadia: Yes, the Riv. Sorry.

Kate: Yep. The Riviera hotel.

Nadia: Hotel. And how it just evoke all those emotions visit because my image was absolutely wonderful. That’s geek. Then they said you have to be relevant, not only to your audience but relevant to your platform.

Kate: Correct.

Nadia: It’s another lesson you just slightly unpacked for us. But I want to know a bit more.

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: Because different platforms play different games. What is popular for Instagram which has certain hashtags and you can bunch them up won’t translate the same way as you think they would get on Facebook.

Kate: Correct.

Nadia: Content. And you just progress on content. What you’re talking about. This is where your brand will stand out.

Kate: Yes.

Nadia: Know what to talk about but also be really smart about what you don’t want to talk about and stick to your guns. That’s how I understood it.

Kate: Yep.

Nadia: Because a lot of people get engaged in that, I for example myself personally, I would stay away from political discussions and being rational. It’s just very easy. People try to poke you all sorts of our political issue with this about what do you think about Putin? What do you… Guys seriously, you think I’ve think sitting all day and think about Putin? No, I’ve got other things to do. And also, this would really was then called for me – stop selling. I’m very strong about it. When son was telling me about you, wonderful idea about BITE Conference, I looked at you and I just said please promise me we won’t sell anything on this BITE. I don’t want people come in and feel trapped and shoving down our services.

Kate: Correct.

Nadia: And she was so actually agreeing to this. This what exactly what, she wanted this educational, to be giving value first.

Kate: Inspiring…

Nadia: And it’s not a commercial set up where people coming to this conference and you make money of them. No, no money made. Everything was just basically done more for the. It was a very altruistic notion behind that, to be useful to the community. And this is where the story is right and because well be useful you’re content to your reader. Address what they want to hear about, not what you want to sell and this selling thing. And another one, which I have to fix guys, is empty platform.

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: I do have host of posts there. Which says I leave the building but it’s just happening. So, please don’t check me on Twitter.

Kate: That’s the top abandoned platform by the way. Twitter.

Terence: Twitter. Yeah, okay. Well I think that’s a great summary. So, thank you.

Kate: Yeah.

Terence: I don’t have to do it now. There’s probably two things that I think I’d like to add to that. That is the human to human. That there are some people just losing touch with the fact that..

Kate: Yeah.

Terence: we’re building relationships. We’re building this human to human connection. It’s all about interaction. And yes, there is, at some point in time, there’s going to be money changing hands. And that’s cool. It’s okay to offer a product…

Kate: Of course.

Terence: that has put an offer out there.

Kate: Yeah. And you don’t have to hide it.

Terence: But it doesn’t have to be in everyone’s face constantly. The value first approach really does work quite well. And yeah, to me I think you’ve probably strengthened my opinion that a brand is really about how you make someone feel. And it’s really about how they feel about you.

Kate: Agree.

Terence: So, it’s really good.

Nadia: Another thing is, very, just suddenly remember because of see images nonstop. Don’t overuse stock imagery.

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: If you don’t have any other choice and you want to plant some image there, just use modern storage of images. You go talking about…

Kate: Unsplash.

Nadia: Unsplash.

Kate: Yeah, there’s pixels. There’s a few. You can Google good stock imagery, good free stock imagery. But Unsplash is a good one.

Nadia: But be prepared that you will find the same image on your competitors’ website.

Kate: Correct. Yeah. And I just think one last summary of your summary and everyone’s summary is…

Nadia: Oh we can summarise..

Kate: I think you’re right that out of all of this, content is your biggest opportunity to differentiate, to stand out, to have, to allow people to connect. And all the things you’ve covered, what you talk about and how you talk about matters, that’s how you can set apart from your…

Nadia: And this is what you are talking about. They call it in the broad term as the distinct voice.

Kate: Yeah.

Nadia: Have this voice. Not just only face but also voice. And I do have to change my face on all things and make it consistent.

Kate: Have a consistent face.

Nadia: Huge thank you.

Kate: That’s alright.

Terence: Kate, thank you…

Kate: You’re welcome.

Terence: for being our guest.

Kate: Sure. No, that was fun.

Terence: And we hope that you can come back and share some more really helpful…

Nadia: Nuggets.

Kate: Nuggets, yeah.

Terence: helpful strategies and tips and tactics.

Kate: Yeah sure.

Terence: Social media, digital media, whatever we decide to call it, the Social Check-in.

Kate: The Social Check-in.

Nadia: Social Check-in is going to stay.

Kate: Yep, that’s right.

Terence: That sounds great. So, we’ll talk to you again soon.

Kate: Sure.

Terence: We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of the unfair advantage. And if you found this episode to be valuable, please subscribe to us and do that kind of stuff. Thank you very much Kate. And thanks Nadia.

Kate: No worries.

Nadia: Our pleasure. Any time.

Kate: Anytime but usually this time.

Terence: And thank you listener.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to the unfair advantage project from more curated resources. Visit us at


About Us
The Business Coach.
Terence is the founder and Managing Director of StrategiQ Corporation, a serial entrepreneur and experienced business operator who has founded, bought, grown and sold several … see more


About Us
The Super Nerd.
Are you passionate about the ins and outs out of taxation legislation? With Nadia by your side, you don’t need to be. Accounting and financial planning isn’t just her … see more

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